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Bill Gothard - The good, the bad, and the ugly

bluearrow89

bluearrow89

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rockfox said:
I'm not familiar with the movement; what was it that led to such things?
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Ok sorry for taking so long to reply, been a crazy week.
ATI from my understanding taught biblical headship where the father was head under Christ, and over his family. Also taught that the Bible desired people to be fruitful and multiply and have lots of children because if they are raised in Christ they will help change the nation's narrative in favor of Christ. These are the teachings I was aware of and I agree with. It was more the individual cell groups that formed and shared the idea that patriarchy meant you had the right to decide if your kids married, and when married, the newly married couple had to receive the blessing of the father/father in law in order to make any changes within the family. Namely having children, moving, job changes, church choices etc... Not completely sure how wide spread these beliefs are. I have known some people who had no negative experiences with the organization as well.
Now, as far as Bill Gothards is concerned, according to many girls/women who worked near him within the organization, he would often take liberties such as being touchy with them and such. They would also be sent to his brother who is accused of doing more than being touchy. It has been a while since I read up on it but if you do a web search his name will be all over and you will find more information there.
 
IBLP also created these: https://store.iblp.org/character-sketches-three-volume-set.html. I saw a set of these at the office of one of the marriage counselors that my wife and I visited. I remarked about the material, and one of the counselors agreed that there was a lot of negative stuff that came out of that ministry. His response was to chew the meat, and spit out the bones.

I believe G.W. Bush, and Mike Huckabee were interested in the educational materials that came out of this as well. Also, the Duggars have apparently been heavily influenced by Gothard.

EDIT: A quick search on Google reveals deep ties between the Duggars and Gothard: https://starmagazine.com/2015/08/26...s-finally-admit-hes-negatively-affected-them/ Something tells me that Josh has some repressed poly tendancies. Not sure we would want him as a spokesperson though, considering how he admitted to some rather seedy behaviour.
 
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Bill Gothard was right about most things. The Holy Bible supports patriarchy, and biblical courtship, while opposing modernism and birth control. The only thing that I know he was wrong about was his belief that marriage is not eternal, and his insistence on only monogamy. Outside of his teachings that I mostly agree with, I think he was a monster, who preyed on young women, and shouldn't have given parental advice, unless he first had a family of his own.
 
rockfox said:
I'm not familiar with the movement; what was it that led to such things?
Click to expand...
Gothard was the classic feminist in “patriarchal” clothing. He taught a very strict and puritanical approach to lust, coming up with a new sin of “defrauding” to forbid any kind of sexual attraction. Women were elevated to the high spiritual pedestal that so many western churches put them on but it was even more fetishized. Sexual purity, or at least Gothard’s idea of it, was the single most important focus of the life of the family. In order for a young man to have any hope of approaching a young woman he had to go through his parents to the girl’s parents and then both families essentially dated. The end result was that young people were paralyzed by the twin obstacles of extreme fetishization of “purity” (Gothard himself never married and claimed to have never experienced an orgasm) and the huge consequences of approaching any young woman. You basically had to decide you wanted to marry her before you ever spoke to her.

There were other complications, the young men seemed to never launch. The young women definitely tended towards a princess complex. All told the organization had major problems realizing their stated goal.
 
I gotta disagree with you in this matter of marriage being eternal! That doesn't jive with the words of our Lotd Jesus Christ.
 
I did a couple of tours through the Gothard Theater before many of you were even born, so you probably experienced a more highly refined version of it.
Being newly married, I was out from under the whole chain of authority thing. Other than that, I felt that there was a lot of meat.

But then, we are talking about the memories of a kid from nigh unto a half century ago.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
I gotta disagree with you in this matter of marriage being eternal! That doesn't jive with the words of our Lotd Jesus Christ.
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Firstly, the Orthodox Church, like St John Chrysostom, interprets Matthew 22, to be talking about procreation in Heaven, since the question was about yibbum. Secondly, Jesus never said what u r saying. Jesus said, they neither marry, nor r given in marriage. That means, u wont get married, not being married in Heaven. That is if u take the passage literally.

Bible Verses:

Genesis 2
Ecclesiastes 3:14
I Corinthians 13:8

Writings of St John Chrysostom:

(I) Homilies on First Corinthians.
(II) On Virginity.
(III) To a Young Widow.

Other Sources:

(I) Heaven and Hell (Emmanuel Swedenborg)
 
sambowers said:
Firstly, the Orthodox Church, like St John Chrysostom, interprets Matthew 22, to be talking about procreation in Heaven, since the question was about yibbum. Secondly, Jesus never said what u r saying. Jesus said, they neither marry, nor r given in marriage. That means, u wont get married, not being married in Heaven. That is if u take the passage literally.

Bible Verses:

Genesis 2
Ecclesiastes 3:14
I Corinthians 13:8

Writings of St John Chrysostom:

(I) Homilies on First Corinthians.
(II) On Virginity.
(III) To a Young Widow.

Other Sources:

(I) Heaven and Hell (Emmanuel Swedenborg)
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If that were what Jesus was saying, that in no way resolves the dillemma that the Sdducees presented. The (most likely hypothetical) woman, has seven husbands. Which one does she belong to? I have serious issues with anyone interpreting marriage to be procreation.
 
steve said:
I did a couple of tours through the Gothard Theater before many of you were even born, so you probably experienced a more highly refined version of it.
Being newly married, I was out from under the whole chain of authority thing. Other than that, I felt that there was a lot of meat.

But then, we are talking about the memories of a kid from nigh unto a half century ago.
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From what I understand, he actually started out pretty good, but somewhere, he got off track and started interpreting Scripture in a way that no one else saw it, and instead of having a seminar that taught people strategies for resolving conflicts, it ballooned into a bunch of dos and don'ts.
 
The Revolting Man said:
Gothard was the classic feminist in “patriarchal” clothing. He taught a very strict and puritanical approach to lust, coming up with a new sin of “defrauding” to forbid any kind of sexual attraction. Women were elevated to the high spiritual pedestal that so many western churches put them on but it was even more fetishized. Sexual purity, or at least Gothard’s idea of it, was the single most important focus of the life of the family. In order for a young man to have any hope of approaching a young woman he had to go through his parents to the girl’s parents and then both families essentially dated. The end result was that young people were paralyzed by the twin obstacles of extreme fetishization of “purity” (Gothard himself never married and claimed to have never experienced an orgasm) and the huge consequences of approaching any young woman. You basically had to decide you wanted to marry her before you ever spoke to her.

There were other complications, the young men seemed to never launch. The young women definitely tended towards a princess complex. All told the organization had major problems realizing their stated goal.
Click to expand...

Sounds like an apt description of the Vision Forum "patriarchy"movement before it got torpedoed.
 
The Revolting Man said:
In order for a young man to have any hope of approaching a young woman he had to go through his parents to the girl’s parents and then both families essentially dated.
Click to expand...

What is described here is practiced throughout most traditional cultures, including shades of it in scripture. It's the basic premise of arranged marriages.
 
Mojo said:
What is described here is practiced throughout most traditional cultures, including shades of it in scripture. It's the basic premise of arranged marriages.
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And that works for them. So why did it work for the Gothard groups?
 
Mojo said:
Did or didn't?
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Ya sorry, late and tired. Why didn't it work? Not a rhetorical question, very interested in the answer. All I know is the present system is broken.
 
rockfox said:
Ya sorry, late and tired. Why didn't it work? Not a rhetorical question, very interested in the answer. All I know is the present system is broken.
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I think it did. I think we agree. That's why I asked. I like that system and think it should be promoted. It's not a Gothard thing.
 
rockfox said:
Ya sorry, late and tired. Why didn't it work? Not a rhetorical question, very interested in the answer. All I know is the present system is broken.
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I'm also curious.
Perhaps the basic cultural structures were too spiritual and not practical?
 
I did both the full Basic Institute and the Advanced Institute series. Each were weeklong, in person series with Bill Gothard himself doing the teaching on site. I very nearly worshiped that guy. I waited in line after one seminar to shake his hand and look him in they eye and it was like shaking the hand of God. I thought, “If I can just move into the internship boarding house with the 30 or so other young people I could really be doing what God wanted.”

I was in junior high as part of a home school program and did about everything a young man could do to be an *admired* Gothard person.

Now 30 years later, I wish I could say it helped me, but I can’t, and some of that was my fault.

Like someone above said, Gothard was kind and well intentioned but... The program (like all programs) was a formula which we measured compliance and performance against. It’s convenient to have some system or set of rules tell me when I’m doing it “right” so I can feel good and bask in the respect and admiration of people seeing that I’m “right.”

It was my own fault I let legalism of Gothard’s program get so deeply in me. I was afraid of submitting to Jesus. If I did that, then it would be impossible for me to prove to people I was “doing it right.” People could tell me I was stupid or wrong and I’d have no defense, no written “rule book” that I could share showing I wasn’t wrong or stupid. Following Jesus was scary and risky. It was easier and felt better to get the respect of family or friends for doing it “right.”

I wanted to be “doing it right” and this program laid out rules so I took to it like a duck to water. But following rules, which I’m good at, isn’t interacting with Jesus.

I’m happy to share more on my (continuing) journey out of legalism. Mostly I’m just going to say, “Jesus loves you so go enjoy your life.”

Just my $0.02 as a former Gothardite.

—JAG

“This new plan I’m making with Israel isn’t going to be written on paper, isn’t going to be chiseled in stone; This time I’m writing out the plan in them, carving it on the lining of their hearts. I’ll be their God, they’ll be my people. They won’t go to school to learn about me, or buy a book called God in Five Easy Lessons. They’ll all get to know me firsthand, the little and the big, the small and the great. They’ll get to know me by being kindly forgiven, with the slate of their sins forever wiped clean. By coming up with a new plan, a new covenant between God and his people, God put the old plan on the shelf. And there it stays, gathering dust.”

‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:6-13‬ ‭MSG‬‬
https://www.bible.com/97/heb.8.6-13.msg
 
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