• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Generations

Erasmus

New Member
Dear Friends,

Foundations are important both in the natural and spiritual. In the natural a foundation that is laid incorrectly may cause the whole structure built upon it to crumble and fall. So too, in the spiritual, particular attention should be paid to our foundations in order that what we build upon them might stand firm and strong.

As it is written in Luke 6: 47,49, (KJV)

"Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock."

We must hear what our Lord speaks and even more importantly "do what He says" in order for our houses to stand even during the most severe storms and shakings. Moreover, true hearing involves more than just being able to physically hear what is spoken to us.

As it is written in Mark 8:17,18,

"And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?"

Though His disciples heard His words they did not perceive the intent and true meaning of what He said because their hearts still dwelt in unbelief. To soften our hearts towards God we must open our minds to receive whatever truths He sees fit to reveal to us. In order to truly hear His voice we must allow our own wills and wants to be broken. This often takes place when we are confronted with a profound shift in our scriptural understanding of how God truly views situations. This is a true saying:

“As we become willing to obey we also become able to hear.”

God is concerned about our generations. It is particularly important to God where we come from and what our linage is. This is one reason that genealogies are so meticulously kept in the scriptures. Who your father was and to a lesser extent who your mother was is very important to the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, from the Garden of Eden it has always been God's intention to be intimately involved in our choice of mates. We see this fact illustrated when God brought and presented Eve to Adam as a helpmate.

As it is written in Genesis 2:21,22:

"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

And again in Genesis 24:7,14 God appointed a certain woman for Isaac to marry and furthermore sent His angel ahead of Abraham's servant to assist,

"The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence."

"And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master."

Why is God so interested in who we marry? It is because of our generations that God wants to be intimately involved in our choice of spouse. When we choose a mate we not only effect our own lives but we also potentially effect thousands of our future decedents. When a child is born to a couple this child and all of his or her decedents are affected greatly by whether or not the parents are godly and raise the child for the Lord. One of the reasons that God called Abraham friend was that he knew Abraham would raise his decedents in His ways. As it is written in Genesis 18:17-19,

"And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

It is my belief that Christians should not marry until they have sought out and received council from our Lord whom they should choose. So much depends upon our choice of mate it is too important of a decision to leave to our natural minds and limited understanding. We erroneously believe that our choice of spouse is purely our decision, but as servants of the most high, that is simply not so. We need the counsel of God and His foreknowledge to make our choice of spouse.

Much is made of romantic love and sexual attraction in our western civilization. Most people would never consider marriage unless they were passionately attracted to their mate. However, as good as such passion is, when it causes us to choose mates that our heavenly Father does not approve of we greatly err, and more importantly, we may cause our future decedents to err also.

I remember that one day I was at a convenience store and an old woman started talking with me for no apparent reason. She told me that many years before she had fallen in love with a man whom was a Mormon believer thinking that he would leave his beliefs and convert to mainline Christianity. Unfortunately, he did not and all their children were now firmly in the Mormon Church to the great vexation of her heart and soul. I still remember the sadness in her eyes as she spoken of how she prayed daily for her children to know Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. Perhaps, if this woman would have heard and trusted the voice of God more she would have spared herself and her generations the introduction of this error.

Here is a truth if you can grasp it: Many people, including Christians, are married to the wrong people because they did not consult God as to their choice of mate before marriage.

In my opinion two of the most misunderstood doctrines in the Christian church are the doctrines of marriage and divorce. In most Christian circles it is believed that whomever you have married under whatever circumstances you must remain man and wife for life in order to be a good Christian believer. However, in the light of eternity, what is best for both you and your generations may be for you to not be married to your present partner. Perhaps, because you did not receive God's approval you are married against His will to an unbeliever or even to a Christian spouse whose heart is not towards God. Perhaps, because your indiscretion, you have built a life around a spouse that will cause your generations to not know God. In such cases, our Lord feels no obligation to bless such a union because He foreknows that many souls will be harmed in the long run. An example of such a situation is found in Ezra 9:1-3, Ezra 10:2-4,18,19,

"Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied. "

"And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing. Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law. Arise; for this matter belongeth unto thee: we also will be with thee: be of good courage, and do it."

"And among the sons of the priests there were found that had taken strange wives: namely, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren; Maaseiah, and Eliezer, and Jarib, and Gedaliah. And they gave their hands that they would put away their wives; and being guilty, they offered a ram of the flock for their trespass."

Their disobedience in marrying the wrong people led them into idolatry and threatened to destroy God’s chosen people. God caused them to repent and put away their wives and the children born of such unions in order to set the nation of Israel back upon the path of righteousness. This is a shocking and somewhat unnerving truth, but, nevertheless, it is how God viewed what happened and is how He dealt with their disobedience.

Men and women woman should spend time in prayer asking God to join them together with His "best choice" for their spouse. This takes faith for the one which God may choose for you may be the last possibility on your list of candidates. However, if we have the courage and strength to rely upon our Lord and not upon our own understanding we will find that He is always right and sees the future much clearer than we do.

For women it is particularly important that you choose the man that God has in mind for you because your nature is to naturally conform to your husband. If you choose outside of the will of God and your husband does not wish to follow the Lord it will be very difficult for your spiritual life to reach its full potential. In the worst-case scenario you may even loose your very salvation.

The Bible states "what God has joined together let no man put asunder" and people often quote this scripture as proof that they should remain in marriages that are obviously adversely affecting their spiritual lives. However, the "let no man put asunder" is based upon the premise that God "joined" you together in the first place. Therefore, if you did not consult and receive His approval to marry in the beginning why should you assume that God automatically approved of and joined you together simply because you said "I do"? Likewise, if God did lead you to marry your present spouse you should not seek to be loosed from them unless God divinely leads you do so, which is the exception rather than the rule.

What is not always understand is that, in the eyes of God, marriage is of the heart and not a civil contract. To God marriage is a level of heart commitment that warrants the type of physical expression, which consummates the union between man and wife. Consequently, if that level of commitment and love exists between a man and woman God considers them married in His eyes weather or not they posses a civil license. This is why a second wife who is not legally married is still fully a wife in the sight of the Lord. Likewise, if a man and woman hate each other, but still live together no marriage exists between them in the eyes of God even though they posses a civil license. When viewed through our Father’s perspective things start to make sense and the fog of inconstancy starts to dissipate. Sometimes, the people that we have judged to be sinners for living together without a civil ceremony are in fact more righteous and approved of by God than those who "did things right". As it is written in Isaiah 55:8,9,

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"

Just as one should always consult and receive the counsel and approval of God to marry a believer one should also consult and receive His counsel and approval to divorce. God does hate divorce and will not lead you to break your marriage lightly. If God does lead you to divorce a mate it will be because of His complete knowledge of present and future circumstances and there eternal effect upon you and your generations. People divorce for all sorts of reasons that are not of God and thus are sin. In my view a person should only divorce if God has plainly given you His approval to do so. It is an individual thing before God and thus another cannot know it if you are divorcing because of God or because of reasons that are not of God. All we can know for sure is that every man and woman will give an account of their actions before Christ at the great white throne judgment when the books are opened. Nothing will be hid in that day and you will receive gain or loss according to the real reasons you took the actions you did during your lifetime.

The bottom line of all this is that one must know, trust, and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. As far as the law of the Spirit of life is concerned there are no hard and fast rules on marriage or divorce because each circumstance is unique and requires the counsel of God for that particular situation. You cannot automatically say that because a marriage looks bad it should be dissolved. God may not give you permission to do so because He foreknows that in a year your spouse will have a great change of heart and give their life over to Him. Likewise, God may not approve of an apparently good marriage and you might be lead to dissolve it because God foreknows the future of that relationship too.

We must all come into alignment with God's will in every area of our lives, not just the ones that are convenient and do not cost us much. If you have built your life upon a faulty foundation of a marriage that was not ordained by God you must at some point "do the hard stuff" and set it right in order for His kingdom to be built in your life. Failure to do so will adversely affect your life, the lives of people you could have touched during your lifetime, and, most importantly, the countless lives of your generations to come.

God bless,

Erasmus
 
Wow I have sever problems with this. So you are saying it is ok to divorce if your spouse is an unbeliever? What about...
Matt.5
[32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
So fornication is the only reason a man can divorce his wife. At least that is what the scriptures say.
But what if she is really ungodly?
1Cor.6
[16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1Cor.7
[14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Well it seems like it doesnt matter how ungodly she is. So how long should these to be bound together?
Rom.7
[2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
1Cor.7
[39] The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

So it would seem that the only GODLY way for a man to leave a woman is if she sleeps with another man.
The only GODLY way for a woman to leave her husband is to wait for him to die. No where does god tell anyone to divorce their spouses for any other reasons then these.
 
Dear friends,

I would like to speak about this topic some more but am fully willing to write to individuals off line if the discussion
is something that proves divisive.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that in the New Testament scheme of things we are under the
Law of the Spirit which supersedes the Mosaic Law. When I say supersedes I do not mean that it does
away with it but merely encompasses the Mosaic laws true intent. . We read in Galatians 5:18,

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Again we read in Matthew 5:27,28,

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

We find out the act of adultery is not primarily physical but rather it is a heart condition that sometimes leads to physical sin. Likewise, the status of marriage is not a contract but rather a heart condition that warrants a level of physical expression that consummates a union of love.

If you believe that marriage is simply a contract or even a covenant that is unbreakable except in the case of adultery or death of the spouse then if you are to be consistent you must also say that there is no other circumstance by which a man or woman may divorce one another. I know of a pastor who is married to a woman who wants nothing to do with him. This situation has lasted for over ten years. This man is a gifted pastor and teacher. They have not relations and they do not live with one another during that time. Yet according to the law, for righteousness sake, he believes that he may not divorce his wife even though there is no love between them. Having no woman he is constantly tempted with sexual sin because his natural needs or love and affection are not met. Consequently, he has left the ministry and now does very little for God’s kingdom. I ask you this, is the law more important than this man? Is the law more important than him having a loving wife who can be one with him in flesh and also in the ministry? What about having children for he, as of yet, has none? Just as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath so to marriage was made to be a blessing and not a cursing.

In the view of the scriptures you have quoted even if, for instance, a man and woman marry while under the influence of drugs and consummate that marriage you would assert that they are married in the sight of God. I don't see how one can consider such an arrangement "what God joined together." Remember if you are going to make a hard a fast rule on marriage based upon the scriptures you have quoted your rule has to apply in every circumstance. You cannot pick and choose when you obey it.

The bottom line for me is that we must allow God to teach us through His Holy Spirit what He wishes for us to do in every circumstance we find ourselves in. If David could eat the show bread when it was thought that it was sacred and could not be touched (for it was given to God) then we must be open to have the Holy Spirit give us His true intentions about marriage and divorce also. This is what my essay was about and it is what I am trying to put across.

To a man that has a wife and family and is blessed to have a happy union it is easy for them to say that others who are not so fortunate must obey this or that doctrine they hold for it costs them nothing. On the other hand, to someone who is in a loveless marriage where there is little hope of reconciliation or happiness this understanding can be as precious as a drink of cold water to a dying man in a wasteland. Let us have compassion before judgment especially where another’s pain is involved.

I am totally fine with people who disagree with my viewpoint for let every man be convinced of God on these types of issues. I am just thankful for the opportunity to be able to share these thoughts with my brethren.

God bless,

Erasmus
 
sixth_heretic said:
So it would seem that the only GODLY way for a man to leave a woman is if she sleeps with another man.
The only GODLY way for a woman to leave her husband is to wait for him to die. No where does god tell anyone to divorce their spouses for any other reasons then these.

I am certainly not in any disagreement with your summation, but I want to add:

There is ALWAYS forgiveness as well. I don't suspect that my spouses have ever been unfaithful, but if it happened, I would have to assess the situation, and see if there isn't a place to forgive the offence, and avoid divorce entirely.

One place where I might take a deviant tack from the summation, would be in the event that a husband became dangerously violent. These specific passages don't address this specific issue, but I would tell a women to run.
 
Actually the relationship between David and Saul is a great example of what to do if a relationship turns violent. David stayed submissive to saul but left him as to avoid being killed by him. No woman should endure abuse and according to the example of david she should flee the abusive husband. But she should never undermine his authority as david never did to saul.

As for saying that the law is no more effect Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law till all be fullfilled. Unless jesus himself said that the law has been ammended as in eye for an eye and turn the other cheek then the law is still valid. To take away from scripture is to have your name taken out of the book of life. Those who name is taken out of the book of life they shall be cast into hell.
 
sixth_heretic said:
As for saying that the law is no more effect Jesus said not one jot or tittle shall no wise pass from the law till all be fullfilled. Unless jesus himself said that the law has been ammended as in eye for an eye and turn the other cheek then the law is still valid.

Perhaps I missed a subtle nuance here, but precisely where did I say that the law is no more effect? Surely you aren't suggesting that I cannot forgive an erring spouse if I so choose, are you?
 
Hi friends,

I think that this is a subject that I will withdraw from seeing as it is getting rather polarized. Like I said I would be happy to continue this privately with anyone who would still like to develope this discussion.

God bless,

Erasmus
 
Erasmus -
Rather than repeat at great length what has been written elsewhere, I would direct your attention to a previous thread on this site, with the title "Is Divorce A Sin?"

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=119

My contention remains (and I do not believe I disagree with your admittedly brief take on the "law done away with" issue) that there is a difference between "divorce" and "putting away", and a believing woman who has been given a lawful divorce (independently of whether the former husband SHOULD have done such) may remarry. Those of us who seek to be obedient to Him, however, should neither divorce nor put away our wives.

Your celibate and separated pastor friend, however, is an example of the import of an understanding of what the Bible actually says about marriage. The man is permitted to take another wife. He simply needs to recognize that, IFF (if, and only if) his wife -- who should not (I Cor 7) have departed from him, nor refused him -- ever repents and returns, then he should take her again under his covering as wife, and thus has two.

I have had discussions on this topic more than once recently. It occurs to me that you will note in Paul's Torah-based exposition of directions for husbands and wives (again, I Cor 7) the different "concessions" for each, based presumably on the differences with which our Creator made us male and female. It starts by noting that neither are to deprive the other.

The wife is "not to depart" from her husband. But the next line is the concession. "But IF and she DOES...."

The husband is not to put her away (of course, that includes divorce as a subset). But, unlike her, his 'concession' is different, and would have been obvious to those that Paul wrote. The husband may "take another wife". What happens thereafter is one of those things in Scripture that scares people who aren't sure that He really means what He Wrote...
 
Wow Mark, that is really interesting, I will have to think about that,

Thanks and God bless,

Erasmus
 
Erasmus,

I would like to suggest that you greatly raise the bar for what you consider polarized for most conversations here. I don't think a person could last as pro poly unless they could handle a large dose of disagreement and argument and outright adversity. The very few times things really do heat up Nathan or DaPastor have stepped to pause the discussion for a little while.

The people I've seen get so ticked off they left its usually by their tenth post, and I can't consider their leaving being divisive as these people are going for polyandry or are strictly anti scripture or such.

Well, good discussion, talk to you another time.
 
By the by Erasmus, the line
I ask you this, is the law more important than this man?

Is a great large statement for expediency. I think that's the heart of the law, or Torah, being a schoolmaster or tutor for Christians. We are to understand the law and the reason for it, then apply the reasons to each situation in life. It may at times be contrary to the rules, but the best thing for the person. Are you getting at a similar thing?
 
Back
Top