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Girl Talk

L

Love

Member
I was thinking about the issue of polygamy tonight and discussing many other issues over coffee with my friend, Wendy. We talked about racism, slavery, feminism, polygamy, among other things. I wanted to share just a few of our thoughts and conversation with you lovely ladies and see if our conversation will spark even more thoughts from you.

Wendy: “ …I think that feminism has quietly crept it’s way into the church as well. I think it sneaks in so subtly that I find myself evaluating how I may even be guilty of it as well.”

Me: “Do you think that feminism began with women’s sufferage and the right to vote?” I have been secretly questioning my own viewpoint on women’s right to vote. If a woman is married to a man that she is both friends with and submissive to, wouldn’t they vote the same anyway? Why would a submissive wife vote contrary to her husband? I guess it would help a candidate to get more votes!”

Wendy: “I can’t believe you brought that up…That is something that I have been reevaluating in my own life. Can you imagine what our friends would think if they heard us questioning their right to vote! Being submissive has never meant that I don’t have a voice, however.”

Me: “..I don’t have an answer to that one…it’ something I’m still praying about and evaluating. I think the most important priority in all of these issues is defending the integrity of the word of God. Does my life and words defend the integrity of the word of God? We know that everything in the Bible is true and truth is always right. So defending polygamy is right whether you practice it or not. Defending a gentle and quiet spirit and submission to your husband and to God is right. “

Wendy: "And our only purpose here is to obey God and do what’s right…and to share the gospel with others. It is not about ourselves. We cannot expect support from our culture or from other people who don’t defend the integrity of the Bible, like you said…or people who pick and choose which verses they will live their life by. I think it’s interesting though that our culture takes pride in being “tolerant” and is tolerant of everything but Christianity! I know that our commitment to being Godly wives and raising a Godly family makes a difference and I think that if enough families make a commitment to raising Godly families that it will make a difference in our community, state, nation…even the world.”

Me: “I agree with you and I am so grateful for your friendship and affirmation in all that I am trying to do in spite of our difference of opinion on polygamy. I guess what began this conversation is my concern that any platform such as racism, polygamy, or any other Christian issue overshadows the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If God does ever bless me with marriage, I don’t want people to look at me and see polygamy…I want them to see Christ and love. THAT is the most important message and we should feel more strongly about Him than any other issue.”

So get a cup of coffee and come join us! This is only a small chunk of our conversation and we talked about so many different issues (we spent an hour talking about racism..which I didn't mention here), but did this convo spark an idea that you could share with us? Like Wendy and I, has God spoken to you about reevaluating your right to vote?
 
I have only a few minutes but I will say that I believe the right to vote is something we should hold on to. If my husband and I both vote the same then we have added two votes for our cause. Even if Christian women chose not to vote on principle, not believing women would vote and then non-believing groups would have an edge over Christians. We need to vote intelligently and use our votes to get victory wherever we can.

SweetLissa
 
I think it is definitely true that today women's voting has a dual purpose...more votes for the candidate that you want.
 
Imagine if a man had 3 wives that were submissive. That would be 4 votes instead of his 1. Substantial difference.

SweetLissa
 
I would have to agree with Sweetlissa that voting is very important for us women to continue to do. It is an area of women suffrage that I do agree with. It is like all movements that start off on the right foot then end up veering in the wrong direction. Take the Temperance Movement for example. Women didn't want there husbands spending all their paychecks in bars and basically adbandoning their families; however, it doesn't mean all men did this. This movement helped get prohibition going which IMHO was wrong. Without alcohol how else would us German Lutherans have communion? :lol:

Almost everyone in my family is a functional alcoholic, so I know how bad alcohol abuse can be. I don't believe in any movement that takes something that God allows, in moderation of course, away from the people who don't abuse it.

I do believe that the feminist movement carried over from the suffrage movement. However, like I stated before, any movement can be taken too far if God isn't the focus.

I would like to hear more about your discussion on racism. I like this way of generating conversation--good job, Love!

Michelle
 
Most of the Victorian books I've read have been about women in service--maids-of-all work. They didn't have a rich noble husband to take care of them. Most of the time they were abused by the lady they worked for and fondled by the husband. Most of us would have been living in servitude in one form or the other. Only about 3% to 5% of the American population where considered rich during this time period. So, I believe that these lowly women weren't even included in such statistics and would be very interested in women's freedom and opportunities to improve their lives.

Michelle
 
I don't think there is neccesarily anything wrong with servitude per se. I do not think that women are better off today for having the vote or places in public office. I will try to post some other stuff on here to let you know what I mean. Most women today are still doing the same "servitude" they have always been doing. It's just that today they don't work for families (neither their own nor someone else's) they work for big corporations and government entities as nurses, aides, teachers, clerks, and yes cleaning toliets. They are doing it at the expense of their homes and families and men are taking advantage that thye can "take care of themsleves". Each succesive generation being the biggest loser in the deal. Most of them are not wealthy either. I would rather have servitude in a biblical slavery system and or be in servitude to my hubby and family than to any corporation or anything that women have "won" with the vote including abortion, birth control, daycare, medicalized birth, dicorce rights etc. maybe I am a throw back. Throw me back into the bible, I say!

It doesn't mean that i want women to be explaoited and sexually abused, of course, but frankly nowadays they are doing it to themsleves and calling it their "right"
 
I don't think there was any time period where women were free. For us to be able to have the time to get on a computer is saying that this generation is better off for women. We have entertainment outlets from the drudgery that our ancestors could have only dreamed of. So, I don't take it lightly what women did to gain a little freedom for me to enjoy and be able to worship more due to my time being freed up. I'm glad that God gave me the gifts to work inside and outside of the home. I don't think we are suppose to be content where we are at. We are a work in progress to serve the Lord to our best abilities. When we get too comfortable were we are at ; growth stops. Thank God, Joyce Meyer, didn't stay comfortable where she was at. She is an inspiration of the freedoms gained through suffrage. Before suffarage we were limited in our ability to share the Gospel. You couldn't even travel without a chaperon during certain time periods. Now, I can get in my car and go share the Gospel with anyone all by myself (off course the Holy Spirit, too).

I'm not a "bra, burning feminist," but I'll give credit were credit is due. I was a stay home mom until my daughter went to school. When I had to go back to work to help pay the bills, I found jobs that worked around my daughter's schedule. I do 95% of the cleaning around the house. I work full-time now that my daughter's a senior in high school. I cook dinner everynight for my family. Other than having to work outside the home, I don't really think I fit the description of a feminist.
 
Hi Michelle,
I meant to get back to you about our discussion on race, but the week got away from me!

I love science and I am a big fan of discovering the science in the Bible ...and there is a lot of it. I just finished leading a 13-session Bible study for youth on creationism, evolution and recognizing a Biblical world view....and recognizing the different world views that are hidden in movies and music. It was fun and we made some amazing discoveries together and had some really good conversation.

One of the things we discussed in that Bible study sparked the conversation on race between my friend and I. Scientists actually consider the term "race" to be a term that is not really accurate because biologically, chemically, and DNA wise the difference in the races is so negligible (it's like a 0.01% difference) that from a scientific standpoint they have concluded that "race" actually is caused by cultural aspects not scientific. Scientists believe that therefore the term race should be instead referred to as "people groups." So basically there is only ONE "race" and many "people groups." But we already knew this from the Bible...we all come from Adam and Eve...and from Noah and his family. :)

I could go on and on...don't even getting me started on evolution. lol
 
Love said:
One of the things we discussed in that Bible study sparked the conversation on race between my friend and I. Scientists actually consider the term "race" to be a term that is not really accurate because biologically, chemically, and DNA wise the difference in the races is so negligible (it's like a 0.01% difference) that from a scientific standpoint they have concluded that "race" actually is caused by cultural aspects not scientific. Scientists believe that therefore the term race should be instead referred to as "people groups." So basically there is only ONE "race" and many "people groups." But we already knew this from the Bible...we all come from Adam and Eve...and from Noah and his family. :)

I could go on and on...don't even getting me started on evolution. lol
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Very interesting indeed regarding "people groups." Are you saying that just because we have biological parents those genes don't make use who we are, that it is more what we learn from watching what our "people groups" do that makes us? I would really like to understand this concept.

If you like Science and evolution you should read some of Dr. Grady McMurtry's stuff. He is awesome and sooooo smart. I've been to a couple of churches were he was the guest speaker. He is amazing! He talks about creationism vs evolution, the earth is only 6,000 years old, dinosaurs, etc., etc.

I wish you could meet FS and me for coffee in Michigan we would love to share your insight to the topics you've brought up on this site.
 
P.S.

I wish all the ladies on this site could meet us here in Michigan! I didn't mean to leave anybody out!

Michelle
 
Hubby and I are planning on attending a conference regarding creation in Dallas in mid November.

SweetLissa
 
Love said:
Let's see....Michigan...Michigan... I think down here in Texas that is considered a foreign country. :D
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:D No, Michigan is not a foreign country. We just wear fur lined boots and knitted hats instead of cowboy boots and hats.

I did enjoy the sunsets in Texas when I was stationed at San Antonio.
 
I think the whole "should a woman who believes in being submitted to her husband still vote" issue is a very interesting topic. A few years ago, I would NEVER have even considered giving up the right to vote, even as a conservative Christian who considered herself submitted to her husband. The issue, however, is far more complex than it seems. In reality, a woman willingly giving up her "right" to vote is far more than a submission issue, rather, it is an issue of understanding the Patriarchal form of family governance.

When a family follows the biblical patriarchal lifestyle, there will be many, many actions and beliefs that will fly in the face of modern society, even modern Christian society, especially modern Christian society. Polygyny is one very obvious example, but women choosing not to vote is a close second!

The patriarchal belief that a family is governed by the husband and represented by the husband is not that difficult for many to grasp, but when the details of that decision -- like women not voting -- are made known, red flags go up everywhere. "Women not voting? That sounds like the Taliban. What's next, burkas?" The simple, non-repressive fact is that a husband that chooses for a wife not to vote is one that accepts the awesome responsibility for the complete covering of his wife and children. Politics is not pretty, it's full of deceitful, unscrupulous, dishonorable people, and a husband who desires to protect his wife from that is a man of decency and integrity, in my humble opinion.

Now, here's the big surprise... I still vote. I don't know if it's the last vestiges of feminism in my psyche, or if it's the pragmatic side of me -- you know, if the idiot women are still voting, then the intelligent women need to counteract their votes.

If my husband asks me not to vote, I will willingly (I hope) honor his request. If the Lord burdens me not to vote, I will follow His leading. And when I read what I just typed, it's kind of hard for me to justify voting again.
 
I will always follow my husbands leading in this. We haven't spoken specifically about it but I know he has always encouraged T to vote. I wasn't able to in the last election because I forgot to register in my new home. However, it does seem to be a numbers thing. If all the Christian women stop voting, and all the non-christian women keep voting, then we have lost half or more of the votes for the side of Christ. If Christian women stopped voting it would work against us. So it seems that as long as any women get to vote all of us should. Until God or our husbands say differently anyway.

SweetLissa
 
Instead of women not voting, why not \PLAN their voting along with their husband or father if unmarried girls living at home, such that they present a unified block of votes for that household? This would seem to mean that that household gets to present a vote representative of the number of adult representatives, but submitted to the authority of the husband.
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This came from someone who is too male to post here. But it was something I was trying to say but didn't have a clue how. So here it is ladies.

SweetLissa
 
Greetings Ladies,

I do see both sides of the coin so to speak. I do understand where Lutheran girl was coming from in her original post. I do agree that there has been allot of good that has come from the women's sufferage movement. For starters, without it none of us ladies here at BF's weather Christian or not, would have the means or privlage to be reading these discussion boards, let alone posting here in the first place. Second as far as Sweetlissa's point, I also agree that the numbers so to speak would be off balance in the voting season if we Christian women backed out. Thus leaving more room for darkness to creep in rather than being the Salt & Light that we're All called to be (not just the men). ;) Is there truly not a way to remain faithful/submissive to Yeshua and our dh's while still voting?

I don't see how voting is some slippery slope to evil destruction. Unless of course we end up thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought to, thus jumping on the political wagons, riding along screaming I am woman here me roar! And in doing so, leaving our families behind to join the the campagning trails and burning our bras! :? I suppose if my dh ever feels true concern in this area and so lead to ask me to keep my vote at home, I'd do my best to submit and follow him in that according to God's plan for our family. I just can't help but fear what would happen if less Christian women were allowed to let their voices for Christ be heard & counted.

As far as women in the work place, I do feel there are two sides with this issue as well. There are many women in the world, some here even, and for a short time myself as well that had to be out in the work place as the result of being single moms. All the "should've's & could've's in the world," doesn't change the very real fact that as single moms we have had to work to provide for and take care of our children. Yes we can confess and repent, but then with Yeshua we are forgiven and allowed to pick up the pieces and move on. Pressing forward for that which lies ahead in Christ Jesus. Until such time that Yeshua see's fit to provide us with Good, trustworthy, Christ honoring husbands and fathers we are responsible for our children.

Also in this economy, allot of families are suffering just trying to stay above float and pay the basic bills. So as there is a purpose under every season, then there is also a time that some women may need to go out into the work place to help their dh's provide for the family, to help get out of debt and ahead a little. I do say however, that this time period should be a breif one. As women, the highest calling is as helpmeet's to our dh's and mothers to our precious kiddos. I say that Motherhood truly is a lost art, and a true, meaningful and powerful calling! :D I feel so blessed and privlaged to have the honor to stay at home and be a "Keeper at Home and helpmeet to my dh!"

As with all causes, callings, or missions in life, they can all without Yeshuas Wisdom, Direction & leading end up going astray and end up being a bad thing! There has been allot of damage done to the call that Christian women have in their lives to their dh's and families, due to the whole women libbers movement gone bad! :? The whole burning your bra thing was just plain dumb! After children, who would want to do that- Ewee that's just not right! :lol: Leaving our families behind just to have an arrogant air of "I'm woman here me roar, and can do anything just as good if not better than man." Can anyone say: "Terrible two's temper tantrums!" :o Or women who don't truly Need to be in the work place, but just want the ability to have more materalistic gain & wordly status in their life.

No of course we cannot agree with nor accept any of these foolish/selfish reasons for women being in the workplace. But again, there are families with very real needs for women in the workplace. And as women claiming to be Christian, we need to put ourselves in some single mother's place, in some families who are about to foreclose and thus lose their homes place, and humble ourselves and pray for them and offer them a hand up & not a hand out. Offer words and deeds of encouragement and montery support as much as we can, before we utter one word of condemnation towards thoes women who have to work. You know, to actually walk the talk and try our best to live and help our sisters in Christ who are in need. To be the church that Yeshua called us to be, the church more so of Biblical times. ;)

Not to mention that Yeshua was the first one that started a Biblical woman's movement of fair and Godly treatment of women in general. As He never intended for men to treat their wives merely as slaves, property, sexual toys, nor verbal or physical punching bags either! Nor did Yeshua wish for us to be uneducated, thus Christian women being able to read the bible let alone attend women's bible studies or discussions such as this forum on this board. BIBLICAL SUBMISSION according to YESHUA'S version of it minus man made traditions, YES OF COURSE! However through much study and prayer, I truly don't see where Slavery and non-education of Christian women or voting is equal to Godly Submission? :? Again if for whatever reason my dh may one day feel led to ask me to keep my vote and Christian Light/voice out of the voting world, then through mature, Godly and compassionte discussions and prayer, I would submit to him in that calling. :)

Anywho, time to get off my soap box! Sorry if I've offended anyone here as that is not my intention. Just felt the need to "Keep it Real," trying my best to speak the Truth in Love, sharing this fallen sinner's two cents. We all have to line all issues of life up to Yehsua's Holy words/Scriptures, and do what we each feel Yeshua calling us to or away from. Keep on Keepin on with Yeshua, family & friends. Staying on the path He's placed you on, seeking Yeshua's will, stregth of heart & joy for the journey! :D

FOR HIS GLORY ALONE,
Sisters in Christ,

F.S.

I PRAY THAT I BE NOT A HINDRANCE!
PROVERBS 3:5-8 :D :)
 
Deut30,

Good to see you here and to read your posts. Thanks for sharing your heart and insights with this topic. Very thought provoking to say the least. I do see an area of concern with some of your comments regarding a few areas regarding the pitfalls and poetinal dangers of we women in the voting process. As the whole political arena is not for the most part a Godly one. Nor is it what our founding fathers had worked, prayed and planned so hard for our country, in order to have this awesome privlage of our American freedoms from an evil dictatorship. Which included the honor and responsibility to vote for our future issues & concerns as American Citizens. Again with having the honor to vote, it is still an important opportunity and responsibility not only as Americans, but more importantly as Christians to let our voices for Christ be heard and counted, thus being the Salt & Light that Jesus call us All to be! :)

As with any issue or cause that we may feel called to be a part of, we especially as Christian's should seek Yeshuas will and direction for our lives. With study & continually praying for Godly wisdom and Godly leadership abilities, to be administered to our dh's to then share with us, and lead us in the direction that our dh's are feeling led of God. So if at the end of the day, through shared prayer, study and mature discussions with our dh's, we Christian women should submit to the possible call that our dh's may have for us not to be involved in the whole voting process. I however do not feel that this conclusion is something that should be assumed to be the same call from God for all families. I do not at this particular season, see how we as Christian women who do have our husbands support and approval to vote as a sin issue in our lives. As with anything there should be a true focus on Godly balance and divine order for our lives. I don't see how voting in a Godly manner approved of by our dh's, is equal to burning our bra's screaming: "I am woman hear me roar?!" :lol: I do vote with my dh's approval, and do Not consider myself a feminist in any way shape or form. Keep on Keepin on Ladies, with God, family and friends. Seeking Yeshua's will, direction, wisdom and blessings for our lives according to the motives of our hearts. I'm prayerful that we may all be able to find His strength of heart, security & joy for our journey here on this earth, with the time that Yeshua blesses each of us with! :D

FOR HIS GLORY ALONE!
Faithful (Not perfect) Servant

I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST JESUS WHO STRENGTHENS ME

PROVERBS 3:5-8

p.s. Hey deut30, I've pm'd you a few times, and sent you a yahoo e-mail as well. Sure hope all is well, as I miss our correspondance. :)
 
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