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Is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 an ideal passage to discredit the anti-polygynists?

frederick

frederick

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For polygyny to be a sin, it must be a deviation or violation from what God has said in His Word. Polygyny is usually claimed to be a sexual sin by those who oppose it. If so, we are told neither fornicators nor adulterers will inherit God's kingdom. It is written, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

What other class or type of sexual sin is there? If polygyny is a sexual sin, those men who were life-long polygynists cannot be in the kingdom of God. So, where are all the heroes of the faith, recorded in Hebrews chapter 11, who were polygynists? Where did they end up since we know God does not have a double standard?
 
NS4Liberty said:
And this one.

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Yes, polygyny does require a proper understanding of adultery but also a proper understanding of fornication/sexual immorality. It's the fornicators; the πόρνοι, and the adulterers; the μοιχοὶ, who miss out on eternal glory in His kingdom. If polygyny is a sexual sin it must fit into one or both categories, unless someone has found another category of sexual sin(?)
 
The "ideal passage" is Matthew 5:17-19. If He was gonna change it, that was the time.

But He didn't.

So the 'burden of proof' is on those who dare to call Him a liar.
 
Mark C said:
The "ideal passage" is Matthew 5:17-19. If He was gonna change it, that was the time.

But He didn't.

So the 'burden of proof' is on those who dare to call Him a liar.
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Perhaps, but my contention is that if polygyny was ever a sexual sin it must mean those involved in this as a life-dominating sin will be excluded from God's kingdom. Those who would argue it is a sexual sin have to address the matter of all the polygynists listed as heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 being in His kingdom. Adultery was a "one off" in the life of King David, so not what would be referred to as a life-dominating sin. In fact, according to the next verse (v:11), those sins listed in 1 Cor. 6:9-10 were the past lifestyle sins of the Corinthian saints, but they were washed, sanctified and justified by Jesus Christ, so would be in His kingdom.
 
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frederick said:
If polygyny is a sexual sin it must fit into one or both categories, unless someone has found another category of sexual sin(?)
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Nobody has to discover one. Churches keeps makin' 'em up. And a pagan society will keep makin' up new 'genders' to commit them.

But it was NEVER really that complicated.
 
To me the best argument for poly is a loving husband, loving wives, happy children, and a safe and prosperous home.

I do not believe it is necessary to discredit monogamous views. The people who hold those views simply need to let us have ours.
 
MeganC said:
To me the best argument for poly is a loving husband, loving wives, happy children, and a safe and prosperous home.

I do not believe it is necessary to discredit monogamous views. The people who hold those views simply need to let us have ours.
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Polygyny is natural the world over, it takes a lot of cultural mental gymnastics to make it “a bad thing”. Unfortunately, the cognitive dissonance is strong in the west.
 
MeganC said:
To me the best argument for poly is a loving husband, loving wives, happy children, and a safe and prosperous home.

I do not believe it is necessary to discredit monogamous views. The people who hold those views simply need to let us have ours.
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No, they don't -- and they won't. In fact, they won't even see such loving plural families as enough of a threat to be addressed -- especially given the fact that most folks in this organization are either in complete hiding or living far enough off the grid to be less than noticeable.

Polygynous views versus monogamous views is a false dichotomy, my friend -- and I know you know this.

The best argument for polygyny is that it is just one of the legitimate forms of marriage given credence by Scripture. It is no more nor no less legitimate than monogamy. Both are blessed by YHWH, and each are required by YHWH under certain circumstances.

The false dichotomy is polygyny versus monogamy.

The true dichotomy is polygyny versus monogamy-only.

And I take back my assertion that the biblical legitimacy of polygyny is the best argument, because increasingly I believe there are NO good arguments for polygyny -- only bad arguments against it.

Argument and/or salesmanship are pointless exercises. He who has ears to hear will hear the truth just by crossing paths with that truth. Most simply are no more ready than any of us were ready before we were ready.

Arguing won't persuade. Coercion won't persuade. Persuasion won't even persuade. The headwinds are too strong.

Here's what will turn tides:
  • The majority of supposed supporters of patriarchy and polygyny coming out of the shadows to very simply stand proud as they refrain from hiding their beliefs or practices. No evangelism or other form of browbeating required -- just a lack of fearful shame. For example: willingness to hold Biblical Families gatherings in public locations instead of hiding in the woods or having to hide in plain sight in the midst of church retreats.
  • Removal of all rescuing behaviors exhibited toward those who insist on believing that the only legitimate options for relationships are (a) monogamous marriage; (b) cohabitation practice relationships; or (c) being entirely single except for whatever one does behind closed doors with one's dogs. There's way too much Chump Partial Husbanding going on among supposed strong men.
  • Once a large contingent of women recognize for themselves that their needs will be better met by seeking plural marriage, and once men who have given up on marriage (under current conditions) have realized that women are ready to be respectfully cooperative and remain in at-least-half-decent physical shape (no obesity, much less morbid obesity), such men will return to being willing to put forth the effort to jump back into the marriage fray -- and the whole issue will take care of itself.
Everybody's waiting.

The women are waiting for men to prove themselves to be Permanent Princes worthy of Queens.

The men are waiting for women to come to their senses.

Mexican stand-off.

But, in the meantime, there will be no talking people into polygyny. As long as women are provided everything they need without having to reciprocate, nothing will change, and it would be entirely irrational for them to change.

Every effort at either (a) jawboning people into celebrating polygyny or even (b) making the case for its legitimacy is the equivalent of mopping up the floor while leaving the spigot running into a clogged sink. The Gynocentric Greco-Roman Statist Mass-Approval Culture is the spigot, and White Knights are the creepy massive Hairball that clogs the sink.

Men, if you can't resist being part of the Hairball, then, by all means, waste the rest of your time mopping up the floor while your wives keep the spigot flowing full-blast while pretending to shut it off as they look modestly pretty in their prairie dresses and head coverings.
 
Keith Martin said:
The false dichotomy is polygyny versus monogamy.

The true dichotomy is polygyny versus monogamy-only.
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Agreed
Keith Martin said:
And I take back my assertion that the biblical legitimacy of polygyny is the best argument, because increasingly I believe there are NO good arguments for polygyny -- only bad arguments against it.
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There are excellent arguments FOR polygyny. And one in particular has become the lynchpin of the second part of my book.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

That word is episkeptomai G1980. It's not merely hanging out and having a coffee, giving the fatherless a crisp $20 bill. It is how Jesus visited the Gentiles and took out of them a people for His name. How He has also redeemed Israel. It's a deep and profound abiding love that meets the needs, not just a pair of shoes or a single meal. It's becoming a father to the fatherless, and a husband to the widow. Just as He has become a husband to us.
Luk 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited G1980 and redeemed his people,
Act 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit G1980 the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited G1980 me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:43
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited G1980 me not.
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I am in terror of what Jesus revealed in Matthew 25. I suggest everyone turn there and read the whole chapter slowly and deeply. These final passages in particular cap the three parables with an ominous promise to those who condemn a man who would episkeptomai a widow or fatherless child even though the man is already married. I call this an unassailable argument, and one promising such profound and utter condemnation for those who adhere to monogamy onlyism. So profound that I fear for their final destination. It seems to me that an already married man marrying a widow is quite literally "pure religion/worship" (G2513 - katharos G2356 - thrēskeia) In other words "clean and pure worship"

What did my master say about those who would stand in opposition to a man performing pure worship towards The Most High in this manner?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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The good argument for is this... Meeting the need fully is praised and results in Him "knowing" me, in Him recognizing me as a sheep and not a goat. Three stories, foolish betrothed virgins, slothful servants, and those who do not meet the needs of the needy. God forbid that I get lumped in with those.

Keith Martin said:
Argument and/or salesmanship are pointless exercises. He who has ears to hear will hear the truth just by crossing paths with that truth. Most simply are no more ready than any of us were ready before we were ready.

Arguing won't persuade. Coercion won't persuade. Persuasion won't even persuade. The headwinds are too strong.
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Not with that attitude we won't!
Galations 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
 
a. We don't have a Great Commission about polygyny.
b. I applaud you writing a book, but as relevant as the existence of an author is whether or not an audience exists.
c. One's argument can be rock solid, but that doesn't keep it from being foolproof or from being rejected by the unready.
d. There is such a thing as tilting at windmills.
e. I continue to maintain that those who are predominantly in hiding in their lives are never going to be functionally persuasive.

When I see Biblical Families meeting in hotels with a sign in the lobby announcing what the attendees are there for instead of meetings being scheduled in Bofuck Egypt, then I'll start believing that any significant level of persuasion might be on the horizon.

This group can't even dispense consistent grace to one another about other spiritual advice, so arguing about what might be persuasive in some other vacuum in another galaxy far far away is really the definition of a moot point.

Saddle up and ride the Twin Horses of Patriarchy and Polygyny through the town square -- and then it may be time to take any of these "Hey do you think this might make them accept us" discussions seriously.

At some point, unless we all just want to be self-congratulatory, we have to face up to the degree to which we're preaching to the choir.

Knowing and being must be kept in balance, or one is stagnant. These discussions are so ripe with Knowing that they're headed past wine into vinegar territory, but there's precious little Being in evidence -- and even that is predominantly fully decked out in camouflage.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
Polygyny is natural the world over, it takes a lot of cultural mental gymnastics to make it “a bad thing”. Unfortunately, the cognitive dissonance is strong in the west.
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When people are absolutely convinced in their minds that something is true, e.g. evolution, their minds will not allow them to consider an alternative understanding as legitimate. In spite of there being irrefutable evidence for the earth being less then 10,000 years old, people refuse to accept it because their minds have been conditioned to only believe in billions of years and macro evolutionary change. In spite of all that God has said in His word, many Christians still cannot see the contradiction for believing in evolution. The same is the case for polygyny in the Bible. Through romance novels, plays, films, "Bible" classes, etc., people have had their minds so conditioned to believe the monogamy-only concept, nothing else is possible. I was one of those people who used to believe the whole monogamy-only lie, and what's worse, I used to teach it from the pulpit! I couldn't see what was plainly written in the biblical text, such was my conditioning. For some of us it takes a Damascus Road experience to knock us off our donkey and make us change our thinking. I just wish someone had pointed out the foolishness of my unbiblical beliefs like the many good Creation ministries have done to refute evolution! And yet, when it was time to change my thinking God also gave me another wife so that my beliefs would not be just an academic acknowledgement, but a living reality. I thank and praise Him for His wisdom in correcting my understanding and making polygyny real in my life.
 
frederick said:
When people are absolutely convinced in their minds that something is true, e.g. evolution, their minds will not allow them to consider an alternative understanding as legitimate. In spite of there being irrefutable evidence for the earth being less then 10,000 years old, people refuse to accept it because their minds have been conditioned to only believe in billions of years and macro evolutionary change. In spite of all that God has said in His word, many Christians still cannot see the contradiction for believing in evolution. The same is the case for polygyny in the Bible. Through romance novels, plays, films, "Bible" classes, etc., people have had their minds so conditioned to believe the monogamy-only concept, nothing else is possible. I was one of those people who used to believe the whole monogamy-only lie, and what's worse, I used to teach it from the pulpit! I couldn't see what was plainly written in the biblical text, such was my conditioning. For some of us it takes a Damascus Road experience to knock us off our donkey and make us change our thinking. I just wish someone had pointed out the foolishness of my unbiblical beliefs like the many good Creation ministries have done to refute evolution! And yet, when it was time to change my thinking God also gave me another wife so that my beliefs would not be just an academic acknowledgement, but a living reality. I thank and praise Him for His wisdom in correcting my understanding and making polygyny real in my life.
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It’s easier to get a person to believe a lie than it is to convince them that they have believed a lie.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
It’s easier to get a person to believe a lie than it is to convince them that they have believed a lie.
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Another version of that is "It is easier to fool people then to convince them they've been fooled"
 
Despite the fact that many of us grew up and married in a monogamy-only mindset and culture, here we are with an opposite belief.
We changed. We grew in understanding and acceptance of this truth.

Is it so impossible to believe that others will come alongside of us?
Does the future of this truth so much depend upon our militancy?
 
steve said:
Despite the fact that many of us grew up and married in a monogamy-only mindset and culture, here we are with an opposite belief.
We changed. We grew in understanding and acceptance of this truth.
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Amen!
steve said:
Is it so impossible to believe that others will come alongside of us?
Does the future of this truth so much depend upon our militancy?
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We can all come to an understanding of truth despite being taught lies. We all in some respect are here as living testimony to this fact.
Not militancy, not anger, not reviling His betrothed who believe lies. But speaking the truth in love. Being peaceable, gentle, full of mercy, being peacemakers.

James 3:13-18 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Ephesians 4:11-25 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Some of us need to teach so the saints can be perfected and the body edified.
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
We are instructed to speak the truth in love.
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
We need to put off our former behaviors, and help our brethren do the same.
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
We can help those taught lies to have a new mindset aligned with righteousness and true holiness by speaking truth to our neighbors.
 
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