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Political theory and preference, etc.

Daniel DeLuca

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
My family has voted for the Democratic since before the Antebellum era. We r left-center social conservatives though. I sit on the Smith County Democratic Party Committee. I voted for Barack Obama (D) for President in 2012, for Rosalyn Glenn (R) for Mayor in 2013, for Thad Cochran (R) for the Senate in 2014, Robert Gray (D) for Governor in 2015, Hilary Clinton (D) for President in 2016, Dennis Robinson (D) for Mayor in 2017, David Baria (D) for Senate in 2018, and Jim Hood (D) for Governor in 2019. Just like my family, I usually vote for the nominee of the Democratic Party, since they're closer to the economic views taught by Catholic Social Teaching. This year, I'm going to give my vote to Biden on March 10th. Whoever wins the nomination, will have my vote in November, except for Buttigieg or Bloomberg. If either of them gets the nomination, I'll vote for the Prohibition Party for President, and the Democratic Party in all other elections here (Senate and House of Representatives).

The establishment is trying to keep Sanders from winning the nomination, since most millennials, including myself, r against Zionism, and modern capitalism. Either Buttigieg or Bloomberg will get the nomination this year, unless Biden is supported again by the establishment. He is only clinging to the black vote, and those white persons, like myself who voted for Obama. Buttigieg and Bloomberg will definitely lose against Trump. Biden is a maybe or maybe not. Sanders would defeat Trump completely in 2020. If he wasn't a draft dodger like Trump, I would consider voting for him in the primary. I just can't bring myself to support a draft dodger. If he somehow gets the nomination, he'll have my vote. I told the Democratic Party that me and my family will vote for Biden, Warren, Sanders, and Klobuchar, but not Buttigieg or Bloomberg. I'm a man of my word. Like my grandpa, who was a WW2 veteran, alderman, and grocery store owner, said on his deathbed to my ma in 1992 before he died in December after voting for Bill Clinton, I'll die a Democrat. I'm about to run as a conservative democrat for my grandpas seat in 2021 on the Board of Alderman.
OK, I could get behind the Prohibition Party, as I agree with most everything they stand for, but it would have to be at the local level, because at the top level, Phil Collins doesn't stand a chance.
MARRIAGE -

We call for a Constitutional amendment, which shall read as follows: "Marriage is, historically, an Institution and Sacrament of the Church. Only religious institutions shall decide what qualifies as a 'marriage.' For the purpose of two individuals who need only legal protection, such as for inheritance and for power of attorney one for the other, the state may license Civil Unions.''

We oppose any efforts to compel members of the clergy to perform marriages of any sort.
That is a proposal I could definitely get behind.

I didn't vote for Trump in 2016, primarily because of his "grab her by the ...." remark, but he will get my vote this year, because of the policies he has enacted. If I hadn't feel confident about Trump winning Texas, I would have held my nose and voted for him, because 4 years of Jezebel .... or was it Hillary ... something like that .... would have been horrific!

The Democrat Party and everything they stand for, galls me. From creepy Biden and his blatant demand to fire the prosecutor and his disavowal of the Biden amendment, to Sanders and his praising of Chavez and Castro, I don't think you could ask for a worse crop of candidates to run for President. I don't remember the last time I saw a pro-life Democrat at the top of the ticket.
 
I don't remember the last time I saw a pro-life Democrat at the top of the ticket.

90 percent of all elected Democrats in Mississippi r pro-life. Only the Democrats from Jackson can get elected on a pro-choice campaign. In almost every election here, it is a pro-life Democrat vs a pro-life Republican. Where I live, the only thing that separates the two r dry or wet county, and no welfare reform or yes welfare reform.

Jim Hood who ran for Governor last year against Tate Reeves, was a pro-gun and pro-life Democrat. Blaine Eaton II, or Bo here, was our pro-gun and pro-life State representative until he lost re election in 2016. Travis Childers, another Democrat from here, served in the US House of Representatives until 2011, he was endorsed by the NRA and the National Right to Life Committee.
 
You're led still being led round by scare words and out of date theories on voting. You haven't learned anything from '16 or the events which have transpired since.

I'm not being led around by anyone. I think for myself. I vote for whoever I want. If I think a person is the best for the job, he'll receive my vote. If I think he's not, I'll vote against him. I make up my mind based on their record. When I use the word racist, I'm referring to the statements made by Buttigieg during his mayorship. My dislike of him goes farther than the word though. I don't like his policies or his lack of black support. Anyone who has ever known me, could tell u that I'm not politically correct. I'm often accused for sexism, which I don't apologize for. I never apologize for anything I say on purpose. I only apologize if I accidently did or said anything. I'm even been accused of racism for passing out petitions to save our state flag and our Confederate monuments. I get the signatures of every Democrat and Republican, including our Mayor and former mayor's, that I know locally. IM A MEMBER OF THE DELTA FLAGGERS, THE GRANDSON OF A DIXIECRAT.
 
Well, this thread has an interesting title, but the posts so far were just pulled from another location so it hasn't really got much traction yet. I suppose I should throw on a bucket of petrol and a match just because it could be an interesting discussion if it gets a good kickstart...

I generally consider myself a libertarian, in theory. However, in practical reality, I actually see many benefits to socialism, particularly when it comes to the expensive end of medicine (specialist medication, hospital operations etc).

New Zealand has a socialised healthcare system, while the USA has a privatised one. Comparing the two, the New Zealand system is both cheaper financially and achieves better outcomes statistically. Basically, GPs are private, and you pay for appointments (some are subsidised). Dentistry is also private (subsidised for the poor). But all prescribed medications, specialist appointments, hospital stays, operations etc are free.
  • Medication is bulk-purchased by a single national purchaser, Pharmac, which tries to get high quality generic equivalents as much as possible rather than purchasing from the major brands, and is a large enough customer to negotiate the price when it has to buy from them. The US government hates Pharmac and repeatedly tries to destroy it as part of international trade negotiations, as it seriously harms the profit margins of US pharmaceutical giants.
  • As a result, all prescribed medication is available for free, or a nominal processing fee. This is affordable because the government has driven down their purchasing price far enough to be able to afford it.
  • Central organisation allows relatively efficient provision of hospital services, again allowing these to be free.
  • Midwifery services are also free, including for homebirth and in-home support post-birth.
  • As treatment is free, even poor people can access treatment at the start of their illness, rather than only seeking treatment once their condition is serious and harder to treat.
Now, this is far from perfect. There are obviously many problems in any system, and NZers complain about them a lot. For instance, waiting lists for publicly funded specialist appointments and operations can be long. An ongoing serious issue is that midwives are paid so poorly they struggle to actually stay in business. There are always issues with stupid decisions made somewhere in the bureaucracy, debates about precisely which medications should be publicly funded and which should not be, all sorts of issues. But bad details are seen in all systems.

Basically, the government is not only acting as the insurer, but also owning and operating every part of the treatment process, for maximum efficiency. Anyone can also purchase private insurance that will allow them to jump the queues in the public system and get immediate treatment - but everybody can fall back on the public system, which is generally adequate.

Compare that to the USA. Public healthcare is funded by insurance companies, that are very expensive. Not everyone can afford them. Healthcare without insurance is horrifically expensive. The USA spends far more money on healthcare per capita than most other countries - and has some of the worst outcomes. The rates of infant mortality in US hospitals for instance are atrocious by Western standards. The entire system is completely dysfunctional. The government's ideas of providing care for the poor is to provide state-funded insurance to pay for this horrendously expensive treatment, meaning the government's "solutions" simply add to the expense without solving any problems.

This dysfunction can actually be greatly reduced through central management.

Obviously prevention is better than cure, natural health remedies are wonderful and all that. I fully agree. But sometimes people do actually need to resort to hospitals and medication for specific reasons, so large healthcare systems do always exist in every country. The question is how these should be organised and funded, given they are inevitable.

Dropping match now and starting to run...
 
New Zealand has a socialised healthcare system, while the USA has a privatised one. Comparing the two, the New Zealand system is both cheaper financially and achieves better outcomes statistically. Basically, GPs are private, and you pay for appointments (some are subsidised). Dentistry is also private (subsidised for the poor). But all prescribed medications, specialist appointments, hospital stays, operations etc are free.

So the US doesn't actually have free enterprise in medicine. The AMA took care of that. A lot of our poor results don't have to do with the economics of medicine but the stranglehold the AMA and pharmaceutical corps have on what is legal, what you can get insurance for, what is allowed to be sold, etc. Not to mention official policy is for cheap food and anything that enriches the corps, not for actual health. There are distortions all over the system.

The USA spends far more money on healthcare per capita than most other countries - and has some of the worst outcomes. The rates of infant mortality in US hospitals for instance are atrocious by Western standards.

That has directly to do with their birth practices. Intervention mindset of conventional medicine. A problem worsened by insurance and medicare as birth becomes an easy profit center. If you take a child into a hospital, and are eligible for govt benefits, they will force you to do unnecessary tests, stay longer, etc. in order to jack up the bills they can charge the government. If you don't like the treatment option they'll steal the kid and do it anyway.

Central organisation allows relatively efficient provision of hospital services, again allowing these to be free.

Both the VA and hospital systems (centralized ownership of multiple hospitals) have disproved that.

Midwifery services are also free, including for homebirth and in-home support post-birth.

In our country the government and powers that be are incredibly hostile to midwifery and alternative modalities in general. The concern is when the government gets into the business of providing healthcare, it gets into the business of who is or is not paid, or even who can and can not operate. And just because they pay for it, doesn't mean they'll pay enough for them to be able to operate if they want to drive them out of business and single payer is mandated. The payment problem is a common problem in medicare; leading some doctors to stop taking it.

Price controls always lead to market distortions.

As treatment is free, even poor people can access treatment at the start of their illness, rather than only seeking treatment once their condition is serious and harder to treat.

Here we get into another problem, when you give out free health care you run the risk of ballooning medical costs because it's free; demand artificially rises. Hence your wait lists. It's common to hear reports of wait lists in CA/UK longer than the life expectancy for the thing treated.

Basically, the government is not only acting as the insurer, but also owning and operating every part of the treatment process, for maximum efficiency

Which means all alternative modalities would disappear in our country. And government is never efficient. Just ask soldiers about requisition times. As a matter of economics the market always pushes costs to the cost of production; maximum efficiency. Monopolies (government run) are never as efficient.

Public healthcare is funded by insurance companies, that are very expensive. Not everyone can afford them. Healthcare without insurance is horrifically expensive.

They were far cheaper before Obama care. Government involvement only made it worse.
 
Both the VA and hospital systems (centralized ownership of multiple hospitals) have disproved that.
And government is never efficient.
Usually, I would agree. However, in 2015 (latest stats I saw on quick glance), the USA spent US$9500 per capita on healthcare, while New Zealand spent US$3500. The US figure is approximately double the OECD average. Even assuming equivalent outcomes, the hard numbers are that the government-driven system is far more efficient, mathematically, than the "privatized" one.

The problem is that whenever your own government gets involved, it does stupid things like just adding another insurer (Obamacare) funding the existing dysfunctional system to even greater heights of waste. That's not actual socialised medicine, just government-funded privatised medicine. But it's called socialised medicine, so it makes Americans think that all socialised medicine is terrible, meaning you can be relied upon to continue supporting the status-quo, allowing the existing system to continue raping and pillaging the citizenry for profit.
Which means all alternative modalities would disappear in our country.
No, they just wouldn't be publicly funded. But most of them are cheap anyway, so that doesn't usually matter.
 
Technically I'm a-political. I no longer vote and I never joined a party. I believe God gives each country the leadership it deserves and that the best way to get the best leadership is for the people to be righteous.

As far as private political theory goes I'm a fascist, I suppose. I want something nice and weird, like Libertarian mixed with Authoritarian paradoxes. 15 lashes with a cane if you're caught shirking your constitutional responsibility to be armed.
 
15 lashes with a cane if you're caught shirking your constitutional responsibility to be armed
How about your constitutional responsibility to vote?
 
@FollowingHim how much of NZ healthcare success is based on American monies spent on research and development?
 
Usually, I would agree. However, in 2015 (latest stats I saw on quick glance), the USA spent US$9500 per capita on healthcare, while New Zealand spent US$3500. The US figure is approximately double the OECD average. Even assuming equivalent outcomes, the hard numbers are that the government-driven system is far more efficient, mathematically, than the "privatized" one.

The problem is that whenever your own government gets involved, it does stupid things like just adding another insurer (Obamacare) funding the existing dysfunctional system to even greater heights of waste. That's not actual socialised medicine, just government-funded privatised medicine. But it's called socialised medicine, so it makes Americans think that all socialised medicine is terrible, meaning you can be relied upon to continue supporting the status-quo, allowing the existing system to continue raping and pillaging the citizenry for profit.

No, they just wouldn't be publicly funded. But most of them are cheap anyway, so that doesn't usually matter.
So there is a lot of myth surrounding American healthcare. I can get seen by a Nurse practitioner for $35 and and get a generic course of antibiotics for another $15 and not have a terrible insurance premium. The truly privatized healthcare is very inexpensive. The problem is we have almost no private healthcare. It is so regulated and the government is still the biggest single payer that it is essentially a socialist system. It’s great when big things go wrong; when we eat and drink and medicate ourselves in to trouble there’s no system better. It does cause vast swaths of the problems it fixes though. Our natal system is criminally bad. But truly private healthcare is vanishingly rate here.
 
@FollowingHim how much of NZ healthcare success is based on American monies spent on research and development?
Interesting question, very hard to measure. Because I like data, for a really crude, quick answer, I checked out the number of medical publications per country here and did some quick maths: https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php

The USA has 247,828 medical publications, which is 0.75 per 1000 people.
New Zealand has 6,479 medical publications, which is 1.38 per 1000 people.

Basically, on a population basis, NZ does more medical research than the USA. You've got to bear in mind that the atom was split first by a New Zealand scientist. A New Zealander even flew an aeroplane before the Wright brothers - they just get the credit because they had more media attention. NZ even launches satellites. We're not some poor backwater.

The efficiency of medical spending here does not represent freeloading, rather it actually demonstrates the efficiencies possible in a centrally managed system.
 
So there is a lot of myth surrounding American healthcare. I can get seen by a Nurse practitioner for $35 and and get a generic course of antibiotics for another $15 and not have a terrible insurance premium. The truly privatized healthcare is very inexpensive. The problem is we have almost no private healthcare. It is so regulated and the government is still the biggest single payer that it is essentially a socialist system. It’s great when big things go wrong; when we eat and drink and medicate ourselves in to trouble there’s no system better. It does cause vast swaths of the problems it fixes though. Our natal system is criminally bad. But truly private healthcare is vanishingly rate here.
Good points. So the difference is between badly-managed socialism and better-managed socialism. Which means my point is that better-managed socialism is actually more achievable than is generally assumed by US conservatives.
 
How about your constitutional responsibility to vote?
If they are too lazy to vote, it’s best not forcing them. The results may not be very satisfactory, methinks.
 
Usually, I would agree. However, in 2015 (latest stats I saw on quick glance), the USA spent US$9500 per capita on healthcare, while New Zealand spent US$3500. The US figure is approximately double the OECD average. Even assuming equivalent outcomes, the hard numbers are that the government-driven system is far more efficient, mathematically, than the "privatized" one.

The problem is that whenever your own government gets involved, it does stupid things like just adding another insurer (Obamacare) funding the existing dysfunctional system to even greater heights of waste. That's not actual socialised medicine, just government-funded privatised medicine. But it's called socialised medicine, so it makes Americans think that all socialised medicine is terrible, meaning you can be relied upon to continue supporting the status-quo, allowing the existing system to continue raping and pillaging the citizenry for profit.

The cost problem isn't ust or mainly the economics, it's the practice of medicine. Medical policy is controlled by pharmaceutical companies who make billions off prescriptions. Doctor's can't even deviate from that due to 'standards of care' or whatever they call it. Going to a single payer health system will only make this worse.

You also have to take into account the health of American's. We are extremely unhealthy compared to many other countries. Most of this comes down to our food. People in other countries spend more on food, have access to better food. Public policy here is basically that the people consume poison (bad food) and then consume more poison when they get sick (drugs) and then consume more poison to deal with side effects (more drugs). More and more drugs until you die. I've lost count of the number of elderly folks who've said 'enough!' and stopped taking all the drugs (and mysteriously suddenly got better). Oh and our idea of preventative medicine is more injections of poison.

That and Americans would rather die of diabetes than exercise or diet.

Think of America like a market oligarchy. The real power is finance, military-industrial, and pharmaceuticals. Everything else is show. Most law in Congress is written by lobbyists and unread by legislators; they mainly exist to collect graft.
 
Good points. So the difference is between badly-managed socialism and better-managed socialism. Which means my point is that better-managed socialism is actually more achievable than is generally assumed by US conservatives.
On a small scale in a relatively homogenous society yes. In the 360 million strong melting pot that America has become it is much more debatable.
 
Wow! It looks like this thread has deviated from it's initial direction. I do want to mention that I responded to @sambowers , that the thread we were initially responding to, had nothing to do with state level politics, but my post did not get moved over to this thread.

As far as healthcare is concerned, back when GW Bush was President, conservatives were warning that if you grant the patients the right to sue their HMOs, healthcare costs would rise. HMOs were a great option for individuals seeking lower premiums and lower out of pocket costs, but there were some instances in which emergency life saving treatment was being withheld from dying patients, due to the provider being out of network. That warning fell on deaf ears, and once patients had the right to sue their HMO, HMOs went away, which led to the crisis were many people were uninsured, which led to the ACA, which Obama himself predicted would lead to single payer. It seems to me, the right course of action would have been to allow the patients, or their families, to sue the provider who had refused to provide urgent life saving care, rather than the HMO, who might refuse to pay for it.

Since the ACA has passed, a lot of these Emergency treatment facilities have popped up all over the place. They charge ER prices, to the insurance companies, and waive the deductibles for the patient. So I can see that one of my wife's recent visits cost over $4,000.00, but they never send us a bill. Their main concern, is repeat business. The same thing happened when I got a kidney stone at 2AM one Sunday morning. How long insurance companies are going to allow this practice to continue, remains to be seen, but so far, it has worked out pretty well for use, and for what we pay in premiums, we feel we are getting a fair compensation in medical treatment.
 
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The cost problem isn't ust or mainly the economics, it's the practice of medicine. Medical policy is controlled by pharmaceutical companies who make billions off prescriptions. Doctor's can't even deviate from that due to 'standards of care' or whatever they call it. Going to a single payer health system will only make this worse.

"Evidence-based practice" is the terminology we use. And that's one of the main reasons why I don't want to work with insurance, because most natural treatments are not "evidence-based." It's stupid because there are PLENTY of written studies about natural treatments. The issue is the insurance and the pharmaceuticals don't get any commission on that.

Regarding the health-care system and laws, I remember my nursing instructor saying that "healthcare laws are written by insurance companies and pharmacies." So true! If nurses, doctors, naturopath, etc. were to write the healthcare laws, things would be very different.
 
The real power is finance, military-industrial, and pharmaceuticals.

Can't believe I forgot big oil. There is big food too, and that plays into this discussion; but their power is fairly weak comparatively (though still formidible).

So I can see that one of my wife's recent visits cost over $4,000.00, but they never send us a bill.

ER prices must be up.

patients the right to sue their HMOs, healthcare costs would rise

One of our problems with the cost of health care is malpractice insurance is crazy expensive; really drives up doctor's costs. Unfortunately doctor's mistakes is also one of if not the leading cause of death. Not sure how to balance those two things. Though getting away from drugs would sure help. I could see a state run system that covers it all much like NZ and it's lack of auto insurance. Unfortunately we already know how that would go since we have something like it for vaccine damage and it's very hard to get money out of it. It functions as much as a system to tamp down dissent as actually helping victims.
 
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