Beef with the TULIP. Indictments against bad theology.

[Transformator Reformator]

It would not be as big of an issue if if it was not systematically propagated. Most famous contemporary teachers have been Calvinists. An average Christian will have difficult time naming nonCalvinist preacher. Majority of evangelical radios will play Calvinists only. The only non Calvinist I know that had any prominence was Ravi Zachariah. And when his improprieties were revealed majority of Calvinists were quick to condemn him as not saved. (This may be subjective for me living in Chicago and Central Florida, your experiences may have been different)

It is however a problem if Calvinist brothers covertly against expressed wishes of congregation teach Calvinism.

 

[frederick]

When people come across Reformed theology I hope they will try exhaustively study the Bible to disprove it,

No, never study the Bible to prove or disprove an idea or belief you already hold. Study the Bible to discover what God says. Otherwise your presuppositional bias will cloud your vision and lead to faulty interpretations, just as it does for the proponents of Monogamy-only relationships. Cheers

 

[OttoM]

There is scripture that seems to indicate that a soul can “return” to Sheol. Also, in the book of revelation, it mentions the “rest of the dead” receiving another chance during Satan’s season of deception.

Something else to consider - John the Baptist was Elijah. He even dressed the same way, and I believe had a similar diet. However, John the Baptist did not know he was Elijah, because when someone asked him; he said I am not. However, Yahushua said he was Elijah.

So can the Almighty send a soul back on earth, but with its memory erased? Scripture seems to indicate this is the case. It’s not a very strong case, but I don’t think we are meant to understand everything. And that’s okay.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

No, never study the Bible to prove or disprove an idea or belief you already hold. Study the Bible to discover what God says. Otherwise your presuppositional bias will cloud your vision and lead to faulty interpretations, just as it does for the proponents of Monogamy-only relationships. Cheers

That is great statement and advice, but I will be amazed if someone arrived to TULIP without someone first implementing these ideas. TULIP confusion happens after a person becomes a Christian. I am yet to come across a person who reads John 3:16 and concludes that God loves only few people and he died for few. I do not even know what verses would lead me to conclude limited atonement.

Saint Augustine was product of 3 pagan philosophies/religions that led him to conclude some false things which John Calvin barrowed.

In the same way, Roman pagan world view influenced some early Christians preachers to see monogamy only in their reading of the Scripture.

I was saying about need to disprove TULIP theology once you are introduced to God that you do not recognize. To conclude that God predetermined every evil to every detail and be comfortable with this is not my initial response. Predeterminism of horror, which Calvinism includes, should be taken to the Scripture to see if this is so, that is why it is worth exhausting studying over such topic.

 

[Transformator Reformator]

It’s not a very strong case, but I don’t think we are meant to understand everything. And that’s okay.

Perhaps the expression, "he who has ears let him hear"

 

[frederick]

That is great statement and advice, but I will be amazed if someone arrived to TULIP without someone first implementing these ideas.

I taught systematic theology for over five years, starting out as an Arminianist and finishing up a biblicist. Believe what is written and not what this school or that seminary teaches. And by the way, you can be sure others will disagree with you just as much as you disagree with them, but God is always right.

 

[The Revolting Man]

There is scripture that seems to indicate that a soul can “return” to Sheol. Also, in the book of revelation, it mentions the “rest of the dead” receiving another chance during Satan’s season of deception.

Something else to consider - John the Baptist was Elijah. He even dressed the same way, and I believe had a similar diet. However, John the Baptist did not know he was Elijah, because when someone asked him; he said I am not. However, Yahushua said he was Elijah.

So can the Almighty send a soul back on earth, but with its memory erased? Scripture seems to indicate this is the case. It’s not a very strong case, but I don’t think we are meant to understand everything. And that’s okay.

It is given to a man once to die. John the Baptist was like Elijah. He was not Elijah. Prophecy has to be treated very carefully. It is almost never fulfilled the way we think and it is always expressing ideas and realities from the spiritual perspective, a perspective that is very hard for us to grasp.

What you’re talking about is reincarnation and obviously that’s not true.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

There is scripture that seems to indicate that a soul can “return” to Sheol. Also, in the book of revelation, it mentions the “rest of the dead” receiving another chance during Satan’s season of deception.

This? --> Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

To me it is indicating that all the un-righteous who have ever lived and died will be resurrected after the 1000 year kingdom. After the 1000, would be the 2nd resurrection, where in all un-righteous are brought to the judgement seat of Christ.

The testing of the people during the 1000 year kingdom, there at the end of it when Satan is released would be for those alive and those souls born during the 1000 year kingdom to unbelievers that survived the day of the Lord at the beginning of the 1000 year kingdom.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

Something else to consider - John the Baptist was Elijah. He even dressed the same way, and I believe had a similar diet. However, John the Baptist did not know he was Elijah, because when someone asked him; he said I am not. However, Yahushua said he was Elijah.

So can the Almighty send a soul back on earth, but with its memory erased? Scripture seems to indicate this is the case. It’s not a very strong case, but I don’t think we are meant to understand everything. And that’s okay.

I believe that Yeshua was indicating that John the baptist had the spirit of Elijah.

Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
...
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


Here In Mathew 17, Yeshua was saying that he WILL COME and that he HAS CAME.
We know that John fulfilled verse 12 of Matthew 17 but it is not clear who will fulfill verse 11. I believe it will be Elijah himself but it could be another that comes in the spirit of Elijah.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

 

[FollowingHim]

I believe that Yeshua was indicating that John the baptist had the spirit of Elijah.

And that doesn't mean that he had the spirit of Elijah the person, making him also Elijah the person.

Rather, it more likely means simply that he had the same spirit of God - the same aspects / giftings of the Holy Spirit - that were given to Elijah to enhance his ministry. Elijah acted in this power under the influence of the Spirit - and John acted in the same power under the influence of the same Spirit. Therefore, John had the "spirit and power of Elijah" - the spirit and power that was also with Elijah.

 

[OttoM]

It is given to a man once to die. John the Baptist was like Elijah. He was not Elijah. Prophecy has to be treated very carefully. It is almost never fulfilled the way we think and it is always expressing ideas and realities from the spiritual perspective, a perspective that is very hard for us to grasp.

What you’re talking about is reincarnation and obviously that’s not true.

I'm not talking about 'reincarnation.' I'm talking about a man dying - not saved - and facing judgement by paying off his owns sins:

Matthew 5:
Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Psalm 9:17
The wicked will return to Sheol (how can someone return to Sheol if they've never been there?)

Reincarnation is an entirely different concept. There is zero judgement or consequences for choosing death. You're simply reborn - no matter what you've done in your life. That is not biblical truth.

This? --> Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead come back to life during satan's season of deception. These are the souls that never had a chance to accept Christ, or perhaps they rejected him. They will be given another chance to choose life or death. Satan - the adversary - will be given permission and authority to deceive you into choosing death. Some of the 'rest of the dead' will obviously choose life, because a camp of the saints is mentioned. The majority will once again choose death - and these deceived souls will be part of the Gog and Magog War that marches against the camp of the saints - but fire comes down from Heaven and kills them all. Satan - who deceived them - will be thrown into the lake of fire - where the beast (Nero) and false prophet have already been for well over 1,000 years.

 

[Man_in_the_Middle]

And that doesn't mean that he had the spirit of Elijah the person, making him also Elijah the person.

Rather, it more likely means simply that he had the same spirit of God - the same aspects / giftings of the Holy Spirit - that were given to Elijah to enhance his ministry. Elijah acted in this power under the influence of the Spirit - and John acted in the same power under the influence of the same Spirit. Therefore, John had the "spirit and power of Elijah" - the spirit and power that was also with Elijah.

This! This is how I see it also....

 

[MeganC]

For me, it was all about grace. Jesus saves.

To me this is The Truth from which any other legitimate understanding of Jesus must follow.

Any understanding that follows from this Truth is based in Truth.

Any understanding that does not follow from this Truth is not the Truth.

And again I cite Billy Graham who said that someone who lives alone on a desert island who comes to Christ is saved. Period.

And anyone who thinks that God would put someone on a desert island and then curse him to Hell because he didn't evangelize, follow a calendar he doesn't have, follow laws he never heard of, or etc. is a fool who worships the wrong god.

 

[OttoM]

And that doesn't mean that he had the spirit of Elijah the person, making him also Elijah the person.

Rather, it more likely means simply that he had the same spirit of God - the same aspects / giftings of the Holy Spirit - that were given to Elijah to enhance his ministry. Elijah acted in this power under the influence of the Spirit - and John acted in the same power under the influence of the same Spirit. Therefore, John had the "spirit and power of Elijah" - the spirit and power that was also with Elijah.

Matthew 17:10
10Then his disciples asked him, “Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?”

Malachi 4:5
Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD arrives.

11 Jesus replied, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, but he wasn’t recognized, and they chose to abuse him. And in the same way they will also make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the disciples realized he was talking about John the Baptist.

Matthew 3:4
John’s clothes were woven from coarse camel hair, and he wore a leather belt around his waist. For food he ate locusts and wild honey

2 Kings 1:8
They replied, "He had a garment of hair and had a leather belt around his waist." The king said, "That was Elijah the Tishbite."

 

[frederick]

Matthew 17:10
10Then his disciples asked him, “Why do the teachers of religious law insist that Elijah must return before the Messiah comes?”

Malachi 4:5
Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the LORD arrives.

11 Jesus replied, “Elijah is indeed coming first to get everything ready. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, but he wasn’t recognized, and they chose to abuse him. And in the same way they will also make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the disciples realized he was talking about John the Baptist.

Matthew 3:4
John’s clothes were woven from coarse camel hair, and he wore a leather belt around his waist. For food he ate locusts and wild honey

2 Kings 1:8
They replied, "He had a garment of hair and had a leather belt around his waist." The king said, "That was Elijah the Tishbite."

Matthew 16:22-23 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Following your logic, Peter is Satan...(?)

 

[OttoM]

Matthew 16:22-23 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Following your logic, Peter is Satan...(?)

In that context - it’s pretty clear Peter was Satan/adversary in terms of being opposed to the will of the Creator. But not actually being Satan himself.

John the Baptist was Elijah - according to Jesus Christ (Yahushua the Messiah).

Book of Revelation isn’t the only place where it’s mentioned people getting a 2nd chance - by returning back from Sheol.

It’s mentioned in Ezekiel 37 - the valley of dry bones - we read about people once dead - getting another chance. If you continue to read that same chapter - the next major even that follows is the greater 2nd exodus - and the king of Israel (we know from Luke 1:33 it’s Jesus Christ/Yahushua) is established over the re-gathered kingdom of Israel. And if you continue to read (continues in Ezekiel 38) - the next thing that happens is the “Gog and Magog” war. Where an army marches toward them - but fire comes down from heaven and destroys them.

It’s the same Gog and Magog that is mentioned in revelation 20. Same circumstances - first “the rest of the dead” come back to life. Then a “camp of the saints” is established (the greater exodus), and finally Satan’s massive army marches toward them - but fire comes down from heaven and kills then all.

If you read the Geneva Bible - in the side notes for revelation 20 - they state that Satan was loosed from his prison around 1070 AD. About 1,000 years after the fall of Jerusalem - and multiple witnesses saw “chariots in the sky” in 70 AD. Didn’t Jesus Christ tell them - he’d return back in their generation? That the Roman soldiers that pierced him would still be alive to see his return? That the high priest himself would see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power?

Multiple witness saw “chariots in the sky” at the fall of Jerusalem. At the same time that happened - Nero - the Roman emperor - whose name adds up to 666 - persecuted Christians for about 3.5 years.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/does-historical-account-chariots-clouds-actually-describe-ufos-008271

We are living after Armageddon has already occurred (John the Baptist/Elijah before the great and terrible Day of the LORD). We are living after Christ’s 2nd coming. We are living after the glorious reign of the saints living with Christ as king on earth for 1,000 years. Today - the controllers of society - call this period the “Dark Ages.” But it was the golden age.

We are living after that 1,000 reign ended, and Satan was loosed to deceive the nations.

He has been loosed now for almost 1,000 years.

That means we are getting very close to the greater exodus.

 

[frederick]

If you read the Geneva Bible - in the side notes for revelation 20 - they state that Satan was loosed from his prison around 1070 AD.

While interesting speculation, the side notes in the Geneva Bible are not the breathed-out inerrant Holy Scriptures.

 

[OttoM]

While interesting speculation, the side notes in the Geneva Bible are not the breathed-out inerrant Holy Scriptures.

That is indeed correct. However, it doesn’t change the fact that Jesus Christ said he would return in their generation. That the high priest would be alive to witness his return in the clouds. That the Romans that pierced him would witness his return.

The apostles also taught this - “the time is at hand.” “Don’t worry about marriage or possessions - for the time is short.” Revelation 1:1 - “Must soon take place.”

These buildings were built during the 1000 year Kingdom on earth. The sheer volume of the buildings - and in every continent - is unexplainable without a careful and honest reading of scripture. These are the buildings left standing. The majority of them were destroyed in the great fires of the 1800’s and and the two world wars in the 1900’s:

^ State capitol of MN

 

[frederick]

However, it doesn’t change the fact that Jesus Christ said he would return in their generation. That the high priest would be alive to witness his return in the clouds. That the Romans that pierced him would witness his return.

This has been debated in other threads. I see no value in rehashing it all again. Have fun.

 

[FollowingHim]

@OttoM, you're going way off topic, this thread is about Calvinist theology.