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Hagar and Abraham

ASyers41

ASyers41

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Real Person
Female
So I have been reading this book discussing Abraham, Hagar and other concubines and wives in the Bible. So I came across some things in this book that I had totally forgotten about and wanted to see what you all might think on this subject.
Recently, within the last few months even I heard a Pastor say when reading Genesis 16:3 and said that oh who couldn't see the problems coming with Abram aka Abraham taking Hagar as a wife. The modern day church tries to say that Isaac is the only child of promise and the making of Abraham into a great nation is only through Isaac and I do not see this in the Scripture. Ishmael is blessed in Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. We also get told there was infighting between Isaac and Ishmael but again we do not see this in the Bible. Genesis 25:9 says that Isaac and Ishmael came together to bury Abraham. And in Genesis 28:9 we see Esau who is Isaac's son marrying a daughter of Ishmael. I believe that this is yet another lie by the Church to say that polygyny and all the fighting is from this one lineage in the bible. Anyways, if anyone has any thoughts I would love to hear them on this subject.
 
ASyers41 said:
So I have been reading this book discussing Abraham, Hagar and other concubines and wives in the Bible. So I came across some things in this book that I had totally forgotten about and wanted to see what you all might think on this subject.
Recently, within the last few months even I heard a Pastor say when reading Genesis 16:3 and said that oh who couldn't see the problems coming with Abram aka Abraham taking Hagar as a wife. The modern day church tries to say that Isaac is the only child of promise and the making of Abraham into a great nation is only through Isaac and I do not see this in the Scripture. Ishmael is blessed in Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. We also get told there was infighting between Isaac and Ishmael but again we do not see this in the Bible. Genesis 25:9 says that Isaac and Ishmael came together to bury Abraham. And in Genesis 28:9 we see Esau who is Isaac's son marrying a daughter of Ishmael. I believe that this is yet another lie by the Church to say that polygyny and all the fighting is from this one lineage in the bible. Anyways, if anyone has any thoughts I would love to hear them on this subject.
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Fighting is caused by sin, not by marriage. God ordained marriage at the beginning and it is good and holy and honorable. Great point, thank you for sharing it!
 
ASyers41 said:
I believe that this is yet another lie by the Church to say that polygyny and all the fighting is from this one lineage in the bible.
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Thanks for posting your comment and I agree with you. People twist the Scriptures to support their faulty presuppositions, even telling lies about what is written.

This comment below is something many seem to ignore.
Asforme&myhouse said:
Fighting is caused by sin, not by marriage. God ordained marriage at the beginning and it is good and holy and honorable.
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Fighting in marriages, families, businesses, churches, between countries, or whatever is brought about by sin. James wrote saying, Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures (James 4:1-3).
 
ASyers41 said:
So I have been reading this book discussing Abraham, Hagar and other concubines and wives in the Bible. So I came across some things in this book that I had totally forgotten about and wanted to see what you all might think on this subject.
Recently, within the last few months even I heard a Pastor say when reading Genesis 16:3 and said that oh who couldn't see the problems coming with Abram aka Abraham taking Hagar as a wife. The modern day church tries to say that Isaac is the only child of promise and the making of Abraham into a great nation is only through Isaac and I do not see this in the Scripture. Ishmael is blessed in Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. We also get told there was infighting between Isaac and Ishmael but again we do not see this in the Bible. Genesis 25:9 says that Isaac and Ishmael came together to bury Abraham. And in Genesis 28:9 we see Esau who is Isaac's son marrying a daughter of Ishmael. I believe that this is yet another lie by the Church to say that polygyny and all the fighting is from this one lineage in the bible. Anyways, if anyone has any thoughts I would love to hear them on this subject.
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Isaac was the child of promise, and heir of the covenant, through whom the Savior of the World would come. In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul tells us that this (at least partially) has to do with him being the son of the free woman, not the slave woman. Paul doesn't say anything about Isaac being born of the first marriage, or the "legitimate marriage". Freedom vs slavery was an issue, not monogamy vs polygamy.

The Bible clearly treats the concubine type marriage between Abraham and Hagar as legitimate, and Ishmael as a lawful son of Abraham. God blessed both Hagar and Ishmael, making Ishmael the Father of many nations.
 
ASyers41 said:
@Bartato I agree but to say that Ishmael is illegitimate which is what I have heard come out of the pulpit and that Ishmael wasn’t blessed of God.
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There are a lot of ignorant preachers. There are also a lot of dishonest preachers.

Those same men that call Ishmael illegitimate never dare to call Joseph and his brothers a.bunch of bastards.

They aren't even consistent in their ignorance and/or dishonesty.
 
Because this isn't really about polygamy. It's about present-day politics of Israel. By associating the Arabs with Ishmael, and the Zionist Jews with Isaac, and then denegrating Ishmael, a religious narrative can be constructed that supports a political movement. It really is that simple.

They're inconsistent about polygamy because they're being consistent about secular politics, and picking and choosing religious arguments to support those politics.
 
FollowingHim said:
Because this isn't really about polygamy. It's about present-day politics of Israel. By associating the Arabs with Ishmael, and the Zionist Jews with Isaac, and then denegrating Ishmael, a religious narrative can be constructed that supports a political movement. It really is that simple.

They're inconsistent about polygamy because they're being consistent about secular politics, and picking and choosing religious arguments to support those politics.
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That's a very good point. 👍
 
Bartato said:
There are a lot of ignorant preachers. There are also a lot of dishonest preachers.

Those same men that call Ishmael illegitimate never dare to call Joseph and his brothers a.bunch of bastards.

They aren't even consistent in their ignorance and/or dishonesty.
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I always get jaw drops when I point out to folks that Ishmael has his own twelve tribes and was greatly blessed by God.

And when you point out that Judah wasn’t born to a “legitimate” wife......whoa!!!!
 
It's scary to see how we add and take from what scripture actually states based on our culturally current narrative, we allow our mind to mindlessly fill in the blanks with how we think it should be based on our current life view. It takes true effort to go and study the times scripture was written and keep that in mind so we don't keep pushing a useless narrative that dishonours Father God. Also I'm guilty of all of the above at some point in my life.... 🤣
 
Mojo said:
And when you point out that Judah wasn’t born to a “legitimate” wife......whoa!!!!
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Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun were born of Jacob's first wife, Leah.

The "monogamy only" crowd should only accept these six tribes of Israel. The other tribes come from supposed "bastards" and bastards and all their descendants are excluded from the assembly.

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD. (Deut. 23:2 NKJV)

Joseph and Benjamin were born of Jacob's second wife Rachel. The fact that Jacob loved her and was betrothed to her prior to marrying Leah is irrelevant.

His union with Leah was consummated first, so she is officially wife 1, and Rachel wife 2.

Dan and Naphtali were the sons of Bilhah (Rachel's handmaiden and wife 3).

Gad and Asher were the sons of Zilpah (Leah's handmaiden and wife 4).

This knocks out seven tribes from Israel (remember that Joseph fathered two tribes in Ephraim and Manasseh).

Of course we also have to remove Solomon since he was born of a polygamous union, and then of course we have to remove his descendant Jesus of Nazareth.

Oh well! Nothing and no one is allowed to challenge the doctrine of "monogamy only".
 
Bartato said:
Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun were born of Jacob's first wife, Leah.

The "monogamy only" crowd should only accept these six tribes of Israel. The other tribes come from supposed "bastards" and bastards and all their descendants are excluded from the assembly.

“One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD. (Deut. 23:2 NKJV)

Joseph and Benjamin were born of Jacob's second wife Rachel. The fact that Jacob loved her and was betrothed to her prior to marrying Leah is irrelevant.

His union with Leah was consummated first, so she is officially wife 1, and Rachel wife 2.

Dan and Naphtali were the sons of Bilhah (Rachel's handmaiden and wife 3).

Gad and Asher were the sons of Zilpah (Leah's handmaiden and wife 4).

This knocks out seven tribes from Israel (remember that Joseph fathered two tribes in Ephraim and Manasseh).

Of course we also have to remove Solomon since he was born of a polygamous union, and then of course we have to remove his descendant Jesus of Nazareth.

Oh well! Nothing and no one is allowed to challenge the doctrine of "monogamy only".
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I’m sure we’ve all heard that the only “legitimate” wife for Abraham was Sarah and Rachel for Jacob, since she was his intended first wife. We here see otherwise.

However...the critics do point out that Rahab had a special place in prophecy, but that we don’t exactly promote or condone her profession.
 
Mojo said:
However...the critics do point out that Rahab had a special place in prophecy, but that we don’t exactly promote or condone her profession.
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Yes, but she married Salmon. She didn't continue in her profession. The critics need to remember polygyny is also marriage and not that profession. :)
 
ASyers41 said:
The argument I am making here is that we are trying to say the Middle East Issues are because of the two boys being at war with one another and that is not what Scripture says.
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Ah. I see.

Well, I do know that there’s been some debate over the years surrounding exactly why Sarah demanded Ishmael be banished. I’m not a Hebrew scholar but I do know that some contend that Ishmael was not merely sporting and playing with Isaac. Some interpret the mischief as possible sexual molestation.

But, to say that polygamy was a historical root cause for the modern contention is a stretch.
 
I think he was making fun of Isaac because even when Abraham put her and Ishmael away scripture is clear they were provided for and I don’t think they would have buried Abraham together if Ishmael had done that to Isaac
 
Also according to God’s Law Ishmael would have been stoned for such an action. This proves my point that even theologians and scholars read into the text what they want it to say.
 
ASyers41 said:
Also according to God’s Law Ishmael would have been stoned for such an action. This proves my point that even theologians and scholars read into the text what they want it to say.
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I didn’t say I held that position. I’m just saying that I’ve read that some postulate.

But, what law is that?
 
We all know that God would have had Ishmael stoned for such an offense just because the law ie Ten Commandments doesn’t mean Abraham didn’t have some kind of moral code
 
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