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Hello from Netherlands

Actually, to make this really easy in the meantime, I'm putting @Johan Paulsson on post approval. This means that everything he writes will have to be approved by @Verifyveritas76 or @aineo before it appears on the forum. He's still welcome to post, but crazy rants like those above won't actually make it to the forum. Sensible responses to theological questions will be approved though. I hope we can start having a rational discussion under this arrangement @Johan Paulsson.
 
I do not want you to disobey THE LORD by coming against me.

Due to time constraints and family issues, I have been unable to devote the kind of time to the forum that I’d like to. Much thanks to @FollowingHim and others for helping out and covering for me.

I have followed this thread from the perifery and watched it devolve quickly in spite of multiple people trying to give the benefit of the doubt to Johann.

Re: the phrase highlighted above, there is something psychopathicly wrong with someone making a statement like this. I could take the time to address all of the theological arguments and fallacies presented by Johann but this statement and the hatred that exudes towards anyone who doesn’t interpret Scripture in the same perverted way says more than anything else I need to know.

As I have time, posts will be reviewed and approved or denied. Based on the latest post by Johann, that is now in que, I don’t think we’ll be seeing much more of him unless there’s a drastic change.
 
Thank you guys for finally putting a lid on this. It was like watching a train wreck. I wanted to look away but kept coming back to watch the disaster....
 
I did not have time for those long posts.
Doesn't sound like I missed anything major.
Real life in a family of reasonable people is drama enough!
 
I was trying to stay out of this one but I can't take it anymore. @Johan Paulsson you need to lighten up.

You have presented false doctrine here and have also been rude and judgmental of other believers here. Then when you are challenged about both of those things you retort by claiming victim status and lashing out in judgment of those who challenged you.

Get over yourself you are not perfect no one is.

Most here myself included are perfectly willing to engage in conversation with folks we disagree with and when presented with objective scriptural truth I am willing to change my stand on things. But your contentious style of interacting with people is not going to aid anyone in changing their mind on things or edifying the believers.
I have read all of the comments and seriously tried to stay out of this whole conversation but if there was a love button, it would be toward this one. Absolutely love this, Pacman.
 
Johan is entirely disingenuous in his questioning but he is able to distract others from seeing this, because he also knows how to:

Nice breakdown. Though I think you give him too much credit for effectiveness of technique. I quickly quit reading his rants. The pedantic spergy approach doesn't really work for most if any.
 
I know that Johan probably won't take any of this under consideration but I felt that I couldn't just leave his charges of Lutheranism unanswered. I wrestled with whether or not to post this because my intent is not to start a debate about differences in doctrine but to shed some light on the way Lutherans understand and approach the scriptures and salvation.

Martin Luther was a heretic, a hypocrite and an idolater.

Anyone standing for and behind Martin Luther is a fool and a child of the devil.

What Lutheranism actually is is a decades long research project in order to determine what the bible actually teaches. It started in 1517 by Martin Luther from the University in Whittenburg and ended in 1580 by Martin Chemiz et. all. when the findings, doctrinal statements, and other writings were compiled and published in the Book of Concord.
The Roman Catholic Church deemed Martin Luther a heretic for starting this research as well as for his writings and the RCC claimed that if you believe in salvation through faith in Christ alone you were not following the teachings of Christ (Christian) you were following the teaching of Luther (Lutheran). Unfortunately this name stuck and for some reason a lot of people outside of Lutheranism think that Lutherans look to Martin Luther as some prophet or saint. Not everything Martin Luther wrote or said is considered good or even scripturally accurate.
We believe what his research project produced, the Book of Concord, is the right way to view scripture. It has nothing to do with the man that started it. You are welcome to call Martin Luther all sorts of stuff along with those that believe the Book of Concord accurately describes the teaching of scripture. Both Luther and we have been called far worse by far more influential and powerful figures.

One note is that Lutherans hold to the teaching that the scriptures are from God and without error and so scripture is the ultimate authority. If the scripture and the Book of Concord are in conflict the scriptures win hands down and that part of the Book of Concord should be ripped out and burned.



Lutherans do not love THE LORD and neither their neighbour and nor their enemies.

Lutherans hate THE LORD. Lutherans hate consistency with the scripture.

According to Lutherans they are sinners. Sinners are sinful.

Sinners are not loving THE LORD.

Lutherans believe we are all sinners from birth:

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Romans 5:12)

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalms 51:5)

"Man's heart is evil from his youth." (Gen. 8:21)


That the natural state of humanity after the fall is sin and darkness and we are unable to go to God therefor God comes to us:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Ephesians 2:4-5)

"I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world." (John 12:46-47)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:16-17)


Christ has done this for everyone because none have kept God's law perfectly, and Christ's redemptive work is a gift offered to all apart from good works:

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifies of the one who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." (Romans 3:21-28)


Christ came not for those that believe they are righteous but for those that recognize they are sinners and in need of God's savior Jesus Christ:

"And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, 'Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?' And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, 'Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.'" (Mark 2:16-17)


Do Lutherans believe we are sinners?
Yes.

Do Lutherans love God and their neighbor as perfectly as God's law demands?
No. Though we try we fall short.

Any Lutheran pastor worth his salt will every Sunday show his congregation that they are all sinners and in need of God's salvation. Then point to God's son Jesus Christ as our atoning sacrifice and salvation which has been given to all as a free gift from God. And this is not because we earned or even deserved to be saved but because God is merciful and gracious.


Anyone telling you that you can not save yourself is a liar and the truth is not in him.

Lutherans look to Christ for our salvation not to ourselves:

"But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds." (Isa 53:5)

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men."(Romans 5:18)


Sadly may Lutheran churches have been led away from scripture and teach very worldly things. Through my experience there is probably 25% of Lutheranism that still follows scriptures accurately.

Again I don't want this to start any debate or infighting about which doctrine is right or wrong, but this is to answer the charges posted above and shed some light on what the Lutheran perspective of the Bible and salvation actually is.

To the moderators: If this post is too divisive please remove it, or let me know and I can remove it.
 
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Nice breakdown. Though I think you give him too much credit for effectiveness of technique. I quickly quit reading his rants. The pedantic spergy approach doesn't really work for most if any.
Thanks, rockfox. He induced some to respond as though his remarks were sincere and to me that's effectiveness enough to warrant attention. But, yes, other than his one reply to me, I never read an entire post of his.
What Lutheranism actually is [...]
Thanks for this explainer, Mage. It seems like a very positive discussion of Lutheranism; I learned from it and others will too.
 
The sad thing about this is that the world really does need to hear more "hellfire and brimstone" preaching. Johan's core message - repent from your sins - is correct and desperately needs praching to a sinful world. And the Church needs more people with the boldness to preach it even if it means going to jail or worse.

Someone like Johan could do enormous good for the Kingdom, if that boldness was directed correctly.

But the message he is preaching, and the way he presents it, will simply tell the world around him that Christians are hateful and turn many away from God as a result. He has the potential to do great good, but is actually likely to be doing great harm.

Johan, if you truly want to advance the Kingdom of God, I would strongly recommend that you find an older pastor or other Christian with many decades of experience in ministry. Ask them to be your mentor, tell them the message you are preaching, and get their advice on what and how to present and when. Even ask them to tell you what to do for a period, and have the humility to obey even if you disagree and see what happens. You have enormous potential, and just need some guidance to attain it - and the humility to accept that guidance.

I hope to see you in the Kingdom after Christ's return, and be able to hear stories of those you brought with you.
 
I was thinking about some positives here. BF members responded to poor behavior from a newcomer in a number of ways:
  • Offer welcoming messages.
  • Focus on discussing ideas.
  • Lighten the mood to keep perspective.
  • Push back with measured force.
  • Patiently observe and/or ignore.
As a whole we worked together, each doing what he or she felt is best for the group and also for this troubled-seeming person.

May this harmony and good feeling augur well for our year ahead.
 
  • Patiently observe and/or ignore.
.

I agree with the rest of what you said in you post, but followed this one because I believe that the views of others are important to hear to make sure we aren't missing something but yet realize that the deliverance of that thought most be in a non threatening way to be heard correctly. I hope that OP can reevaluate his contribution and understand that there are folks here that want to hear what he has to say, just don't want to be told they are wrong in thier belief from someone who is just as mixed up as we all are. Trying to beat someone into ones personal belief never works.
 
The sad thing about this is that the world really does need to hear more "hellfire and brimstone" preaching. Johan's core message - repent from your sins - is correct and desperately needs praching to a sinful world. And the Church needs more people with the boldness to preach it even if it means going to jail or worse.

Someone like Johan could do enormous good for the Kingdom, if that boldness was directed correctly.

But the message he is preaching, and the way he presents it, will simply tell the world around him that Christians are hateful and turn many away from God as a result. He has the potential to do great good, but is actually likely to be doing great harm.

Johan, if you truly want to advance the Kingdom of God, I would strongly recommend that you find an older pastor or other Christian with many decades of experience in ministry. Ask them to be your mentor, tell them the message you are preaching, and get their advice on what and how to present and when. Even ask them to tell you what to do for a period, and have the humility to obey even if you disagree and see what happens. You have enormous potential, and just need some guidance to attain it - and the humility to accept that guidance.

I hope to see you in the Kingdom after Christ's return, and be able to hear stories of those you brought with you.
Honestly, even in the middle of this, I was going to post something almost exactly like this. Early on, I admitted to him that I actually found agreement with him on things. He is like a young viper. He doesn't know yet how to measure his venom. It just spews out without regard to the size or threat of his prey. Unfortunately, he felt just as much of a need to ask people to repent of their disagreements with him as much as he encouraged them to repent of their infractions against God....scary.
 
The sad thing about this is that the world really does need to hear more "hellfire and brimstone" preaching. Johan's core message - repent from your sins - is correct and desperately needs praching to a sinful world. And the Church needs more people with the boldness to preach it even if it means going to jail or worse.

Someone like Johan could do enormous good for the Kingdom, if that boldness was directed correctly.

But the message he is preaching, and the way he presents it, will simply tell the world around him that Christians are hateful and turn many away from God as a result. He has the potential to do great good, but is actually likely to be doing great harm.

Johan, if you truly want to advance the Kingdom of God, I would strongly recommend that you find an older pastor or other Christian with many decades of experience in ministry. Ask them to be your mentor, tell them the message you are preaching, and get their advice on what and how to present and when. Even ask them to tell you what to do for a period, and have the humility to obey even if you disagree and see what happens. You have enormous potential, and just need some guidance to attain it - and the humility to accept that guidance.

I hope to see you in the Kingdom after Christ's return, and be able to hear stories of those you brought with you.

We need way more of that kind of preaching, in the church and on the street. And there is a theological argument to be made for the virtue of hate. But all must be rooted in love. And the spergy, if you're not 100% correct you're going to hell, while I understand the idea, doesn't match scripture or real life and will only serve to isolate you from everyone but yourself.

I don't even agree with the me of a year ago much less everyone else.
 
The sad thing about this is that the world really does need to hear more "hellfire and brimstone" preaching. Johan's core message - repent from your sins - is correct and desperately needs praching to a sinful world. And the Church needs more people with the boldness to preach it even if it means going to jail or worse.

Someone like Johan could do enormous good for the Kingdom, if that boldness was directed correctly.

But the message he is preaching, and the way he presents it, will simply tell the world around him that Christians are hateful and turn many away from God as a result. He has the potential to do great good, but is actually likely to be doing great harm.

Johan, if you truly want to advance the Kingdom of God, I would strongly recommend that you find an older pastor or other Christian with many decades of experience in ministry. Ask them to be your mentor, tell them the message you are preaching, and get their advice on what and how to present and when. Even ask them to tell you what to do for a period, and have the humility to obey even if you disagree and see what happens. You have enormous potential, and just need some guidance to attain it - and the humility to accept that guidance.

I hope to see you in the Kingdom after Christ's return, and be able to hear stories of those you brought with you.
Because sometimes a like just isn't enough.
 
My hope is to see and find people who are a family of God, people who are willing to lay down their lives for one another and to have all things common with one another.

I think for the most part everyone here wants the same thing. But we each have to figure out how to relate to others so they can understand our intention. It's not an easy job and one that takes effort on our part to put our best foot forward. But somehow your messages are creating this -

Even my parents and siblings has shunned me, rejected me and hated me, even now they are shunning me, rejecting me and hating me.

Maybe you want to rethink your approach. None of us are perfect and we all have to retry when we don't come across just right to create that friendship. It's obvious people here are trying to hear you. Maybe you could help them.
 
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