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Helpmeet - Ruprecht Wachter

I am curious, as a somewhat ex-Catholic but who spend a large amount of time in a Catholic school, how can people who really believe in the Bible to the letter, not come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the "correct church™"? Peter was given the task to build the church, that is what the scripture tells us, and the Catholic church can trace it's foundation to Peter.
Actually, the Roman Catholic Church claims to trace its roots back to Peter. It can’t actually do so. And even the claim that Peter was tasked with building the church is a deeply dubious claim as the resurrected Christ said, “on this rock I will build my kingdom.” There are a lot of interpretations of that statement that don’t end with believers praying to gold encrusted statues of a woman.
 
The myth that the Catholic Church traces its roots back to Peter is patently ludicrous. The Catholic Church fulfills more of the criteria of the harlot riding the Scarlet Beast in the Revelation of John than the criteria of Christ's church.
 
The myth that the Catholic Church traces its roots back to Peter is patently ludicrous. The Catholic Church fulfills more of the criteria of the harlot riding the Scarlet Beast in the Revelation of John than the criteria of Christ's church.
To believe that a sinner such as Peter was the rock on which Jesus is building His church contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

There is only one Rock and He is God Almighty. There are many passages in the Bible that attest to that truth, however the prophet Isaiah records one of the clearest statements by God. Isaiah 44:8 "Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”

Peter is not the rock on which Jesus Christ is building His church; never was, never will be. Peter was a sinner saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, the same as any other sinner (including the mother of Jesus).
 
Unless you have female domination fetish, you prefer being submissive. And you would already know do you have this fetish.

I would say I have neither a domination fetish, nor do I prefer being submissive. I do not think you can simply put people into cupboards.

Sometime I like taking the lead because, as they say, if you want something done (well) do it yourself, I am unwilling to be sloppy. That includes leading a group.

As I also said I have no issues letting someone lead a project if they are better.

I guess to some extent it is based on how I was raised, and the examples set by other females in my family. There is maybe one cousin, and one aunt who are more on the submissive side, but in general the vast majority of the woman in my family are very confident in life. I would say they all view marriage as more of a partnership, I don't think anyone of them bosses their husband around, but they would likely also not tolerate being bossed around. In the end, none of my aunts are divorced so whatever it is they are living seems to work for them, that does not mean it would work for everyone.

I don't remember you mention brother(s), only sisters. You are probably oldest sister in family which implies your father treating you as son and preparing you to inherited family business.

This will make you more masculine masking your inherent femininity. Don't work, femininity is steal there. Only thing is needed is right man to unlock it.

I am in the middle. I am 17. I have a 19 year old brother, and a 22 year old sister. I also have younger 12, and 14 year old sisters.
You are too full of business info. Can't apply same toward sexual relationships. And my point was never about trust. It was about women's need for man's mystery.



Still not about trust. Just hubby won't tell everything going in his life. He will keep some things for himself. Including some plans for both of you.


It's doesn't work like that. You are assuming you will make plans for weekend and you and husband will coordinate yourself.

Sexual relationships don't work like that.
Sex might be different, I do not really know, but other aspects of life, I would not view myself as submissive. For example, I could not tolerate not having my own bank account, with my own income. Again I view my family as an example, both my parents have separate accounts, and both finance their own hobbies and projects, there is a joint account for family affairs.
 
I admit I had viewed it as historical fact that Peter was in Rome, and founded the Catholic Church. I have visited the tomb of Peter! LOL. I spent about 1 hour reading about this topic. In the end it seems to boil down to:

1 Peter

If 1 Peter was written by Peter, then it seems historians would concede that he was in Rome, since apparently it is considered acceptable that Babylon was a code word for Rome.

Problem:

The Catholic Church cannot prove that Peter wrote Peter. Furthermore, the author of Peter was an educated person, who displays a knowledge of Greek culture, philosophy and linguistic skills that a fisherman from Galilee like Peter would not possess.

Guys, you have basically given me ammunition for my arguments, if it is disputed that Peter wrote Peter then well, it just cements my view that people have misused scripture for their own purposes.

I just though of something while writing this.

As I keep stating I view the Universe as God's work, and scripture would need to be consistent with the Universe.

The Bible states that Adam was created first. Problem: All embryos start out as a female phenotype, they would develop a vagina etc. , however during the (if memory serves) 3rd month of pregnancy male gene expression starts and developments gets changed to a Penis, testicles, testosterone etc. . If Adam came first why does God's creation demonstrate the female embryo as the baseline, and males are diverged from that?
 
I admit I had viewed it as historical fact that Peter was in Rome, and founded the Catholic Church. I have visited the tomb of Peter! LOL. I spent about 1 hour reading about this topic. In the end it seems to boil down to:

1 Peter

If 1 Peter was written by Peter, then it seems historians would concede that he was in Rome, since apparently it is considered acceptable that Babylon was a code word for Rome.

Problem:

The Catholic Church cannot prove that Peter wrote Peter. Furthermore, the author of Peter was an educated person, who displays a knowledge of Greek culture, philosophy and linguistic skills that a fisherman from Galilee like Peter would not possess.

Guys, you have basically given me ammunition for my arguments, if it is disputed that Peter wrote Peter then well, it just cements my view that people have misused scripture for their own purposes.

I just though of something while writing this.

As I keep stating I view the Universe as God's work, and scripture would need to be consistent with the Universe.

The Bible states that Adam was created first. Problem: All embryos start out as a female phenotype, they would develop a vagina etc. , however during the (if memory serves) 3rd month of pregnancy male gene expression starts and developments gets changed to a Penis, testicles, testosterone etc. . If Adam came first why does God's creation demonstrate the female embryo as the baseline, and males are diverged from that?
You jump to many conclusions. Just because Peter did or did not write the book of 1 Peter doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not he built the church or if he did that the church he built was the Roman Catholic one. Remember that Paul was in Rome too at that time. But either way, there is just no indication that there was anything like the Catholic Church existent at the time. To prove Peter founded the Roman Catholic Church you would have to show that he espoused any of the peculiar theology that church adheres to. There’s simply no indication that he did.

As far as Adam goes, he did not experience a gestation through pregnancy. He was created a fully grown man. He would have never been a female “embryo”. But again, even if he had been that wouldn’t violate the creation account. It says Adam was created first. Had Adam been created as an embryo he still would have been Adam in those early stages of gestation. But again, he was created as an adult so that doesn’t matter anyway.
 
I admit I had viewed it as historical fact that Peter was in Rome, and founded the Catholic Church. I have visited the tomb of Peter!
You've visited a monument that the Catholic Church claims is the tomb of Peter. I have been to the tomb of Vladimir Lenin and I can assure you Lenin is not in it (the wax sculpture purporting to be his corpse isn't even really that convincing). I have been to three different tombs of Sun Zhongshan (or Sun Yat-Sen if you prefer his Western spelling), and Dr. Sun is only buried in one of them. I have visited the tomb of Genghis Khan, when historians do not know where he was actually buried. A monument can be erected claiming to be anyone's tomb.
There is also the fact that there is doubt as to whether the man who went to Rome claiming to be the Apostle Peter was actually Peter (which I'll get around to explaining eventually). When one reads the Pauline Gospels, one finds frequent references to an impostor religion, a false Gospel being spread by those who claim to serve Christ but do not actually. Jude as well later warned about the Great Apostasy, where many would believe they were serving Christ while they were following a false faith that was contrary to God's Will. There is evidence (admittedly not hard proof, but evidence) that this false Gospel Paul warned against was the early bastardization of Pagan worship overlaid with Christian symbolism that would later be institutionalized as the Roman Catholic Church.

I spent about 1 hour reading about this topic.
Madam, pardon my sarcasm but you may rest assured I've spent well more than 1 hour reading about this. Confronting the Heresy of Rome has been the entire foundation of what I hope I am not being too brazen by calling "my life's ministry."

In the end it seems to boil down to:

1 Peter

If 1 Peter was written by Peter, then it seems historians would concede that he was in Rome, since apparently it is considered acceptable that Babylon was a code word for Rome.
It's more than this. First of all, you are correct that the Catholic Church cannot prove the Apostle Simon Peter wrote 1 Peter, but even if he did (and yes it's rather widely acknowledged that "Babylon" was a code word for Rome; it's used later in Revelation as well), that does not prove Peter was in Rome when it was written. I find nothing in the Petrine Gospels specifically claiming, even in code, that the writer was within the city limits of Rome when it was written, and I find it unlikely that Peter would have any reason to go there. Not only was he commissioned as Apostle to the Jews rather than to the Gentiles, but it makes little practical sense. The Early Church had precious few leaders, and Paul was already in Rome. It seems inefficient for the sparsely manned early Church to send both of its heaviest hitters to the same city and leave the rest of the world with only Junior Varsity evangelists to spread the Gospel.

To believe that a sinner such as Peter was the rock on which Jesus is building His church contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.

There is only one Rock and He is God Almighty. There are many passages in the Bible that attest to that truth, however the prophet Isaiah records one of the clearest statements by God. Isaiah 44:8 "Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’”

Peter is not the rock on which Jesus Christ is building His church; never was, never will be. Peter was a sinner saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, the same as any other sinner (including the mother of Jesus).
Eh, both doctrine and linguistics both compel me to dispute this as well. If your claim is "Peter was sinful so God couldn't do anything with him," then we're all up an offensively named creek without a paddle. Paul was a sinner (and he referred to himself as chief among sinners). If God couldn't do anything useful with sinners, there'd be no Church. Peter's original name was Simon. Christ gave him the name Peter, and he chose that name because it literally translates into "rock. If you read the verse with the name's meaning substituted for the name, it becomes "thous art rock, and upon this rock I shall build my Church." It seems fairly cut and dry that Christ was stating He'd build His Church using Peter as its backbone.
The part I'm refuting is the belief that this refers to the Roman Catholic Church. The Church of the Apostles was founded on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), and the Plan of Salvation by Baptism was revealed there by Peter (Verse 38). Until Paul's later commission to spread the Gospel beyond the Jews and into the Gentile nations, Peter was regarded as the rather undisputed leader of the original Apostles and therefore of the early Church, and Peter performed more than three quarters of the Baptisms recorded in Scripture.
When Christ said He'd build His Church upon Peter, He was referring to that; to Pentecost and the 1st century Church of the Book of Acts, not to the Roman Catholic Church.
 
I didn't make that claim. Cheers
Oh?
You said this.
To believe that a sinner such as Peter was the rock on which Jesus is building His church contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture.
Sounds like "Peter was sinful so God couldn't do anything with him" in my ears. If that's not what you were saying then I invite you to clarify.

Here, you and I (and many others) part company. Baptismal regeneration is a works gospel.
Eh, only if you claim that Baptism is our own work. Scripture tells us that it's the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation by the three steps of 1) Repentance, 2) Baptism of water and 3) Baptism of the Spirit isn't an interpretation, but a direct quotation (Acts 2:38-39). I'm not going to fight you on it but, there it is.
 
Oh?
You said this.

Sounds like "Peter was sinful so God couldn't do anything with him" in my ears. If that's not what you were saying then I invite you to clarify.


Eh, only if you claim that Baptism is our own work. Scripture tells us that it's the work of the Holy Spirit. Salvation by the three steps of 1) Repentance, 2) Baptism of water and 3) Baptism of the Spirit isn't an interpretation, but a direct quotation (Acts 2:38-39). I'm not going to fight you on it but, there it is.
Then you should stick with what is written and not reading your ideas into it.

Works is works. Baptism in water is a human work. No fight necessary.

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.There it is.
 
Christ gave him the name Peter, and he chose that name because it literally translates into "rock.
Peter's name was Cephas, a stone. Read the text.

John 1:42, And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).
 
Then you should stick with what is written and not reading your ideas into it.
That's precisely what I'm doing.

"Πέτρος φησίν, "Μετανοήσατε Καὶ βαπτισθήτω, ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ὑμῶν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος." -Acts 2:38

"ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται δὲ ὁ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται." -Mark 16:16

"Ἰησοῦς Ἀπεκρίθη 'Ἀμὴν, ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ τις δύναται εἰσελθεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν Θεοῦ ἐὰν γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ Πνεύματος." -John 3:5

I don't interpret anything. I quote the Bible verbatim, and I apply it, which leads inexorably to Christ's own teachings (both from His own mouth and the mouths of His Apostles) that Salvation comes by Baptism, first in water and then in the Holy Spirit.

Peter's name was Cephas, a stone. Read the text.

John 1:42, And he brought him to Jesus.
Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called cephas” (which is translated, A Stone).
Precisely my point. Christ gave Peter the name "Rock." Your earlier declaration was that Peter was not what Christ was referring to when He said "upon this rock I will build My Church." My rebuttal, which you did a wonderful job of supporting, was "Christ specifically named him 'Rock' for precisely that reason."
 
I don't interpret anything.
Then do a word search for "Rock" in the Old Testament Scriptures and see how many references there are to God being the Rock. Jesus Christ does not identify Peter as God, the Rock. There is only one Rock who is the God of salvation and it is NOT the man, Peter. You are reading your understanding into the text. Scripture interprets Scripture and Jesus never misrepresents or contradicts the Hebrew Scriptures.
 
As I keep stating I view the Universe as God's work, and scripture would need to be consistent with the Universe.
Being now aware of your age I'll frame this the way I would frame one of my Sunday School lessons instead of as an allegation of blasphemy (which is the form it would take if an adult said what you have said). Re-read the above statement, several times, slowly.
You begin by stating your own view, and then you assert that the onus is upon God to alter His Scripture so that it lines up with your view.
Guys, you have basically given me ammunition for my arguments, if it is disputed that Peter wrote Peter then well, it just cements my view that people have misused scripture for their own purposes.
Yes, which is precisely what you confess that you are doing when you flatly declare that you pick and choose when Scripture does and does not apply. Your position from the beginning has been "I don't like the interpretation that a woman is the property of a man." The rebuttal was "that's not an interpretation, it's direct quotation." You followed that up using multiple declarations of modern thought that have no Biblical basis, in an attempt to support your claim that what God intends is what you think, and not what the Bible says.
I believe you'll find that it is you who are misusing Scripture by openly declaring that only those passages that conform to your view are to be accepted and all others are to be dismissed, and the rebuttal you have come up against is the literal, unfiltered, uninterpreted application of Scripture in the original, unaltered language.

It is interesting that in both debates I have engaged in on this thread (one with you and one with @frederick ) the crux of the debate has been "here's what you claim to think the Bible wants to mean, and here's what it actually says."
 
Then do a word search for "Rock" in the Old Testament Scriptures and see how many references there are to God being the Rock. Jesus Christ does not identify Peter as God, the Rock. There is only one Rock who is the God of salvation and it is NOT the man, Peter. You are reading your understanding into the text. Scripture interprets Scripture and Jesus never misrepresents or contradicts the Hebrew Scriptures.
No, I'm reading Christ's own words. Simon was called Simon. Christ walked up to him and changed is name to "Rock," and said in the very next breath "upon this [referential case referring to the object of the previous clause of the sentence, namely the man he had just renamed 'Rock'] rock I will build My Church." Your statement is "When Christ changed his name to 'Rock,' he didn't mean the kind of rock that's a rock." Argue with Christ all you like. I take Him at His own word at face value.
 
I take Him at His own word at face value.
Then your interpretation contradicts the Scriptures, something which Jesus Christ never does.

Your interpretation regarding baptismal regeneration also contradicts Scripture as has already been shown.
 
Then your interpretation contradicts the Scriptures, something which Jesus Christ never does.

Your interpretation regarding baptismal regeneration also contradicts Scripture as has already been shown.
I have already proven I have no interpretation. I quoted multiple times from the original text where Christ and His Apostles both stated Baptism is necessary for Salvation...
That's precisely what I'm doing.

"Πέτρος φησίν, "Μετανοήσατε Καὶ βαπτισθήτω, ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ὑμῶν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος." -Acts 2:38

"ὁ πιστεύσας καὶ βαπτισθεὶς σωθήσεται δὲ ὁ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται." -Mark 16:16

"Ἰησοῦς Ἀπεκρίθη 'Ἀμὴν, ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ τις δύναται εἰσελθεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν Θεοῦ ἐὰν γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ Πνεύματος." -John 3:5
...right here.

Your claim is that my direct and unaltered quotations of Scripture, contradict Scripture, and you haven't shown a thing other than an ability to self-contradict.
I quote Christ, you deny Him.
Debate complete.
 
I have already proven I have no interpretation. I quoted multiple times from the original text where Christ and His Apostles both stated Baptism is necessary for Salvation...
You obviously interpret (and misinterpret) because you quote John 3:5 yet ignore the fact that Jesus is talking to Nicodemus, a man who is a Pharisee and ruler of the Jews. Jesus isn't inventing a new way of salvation but teaching this man who should have known the things Jesus is talking about (see John 3:10). The water and spirit He refers to alludes to e.g. Ezekiel 36:25-27. Jesus is not inventing something new otherwise those who were never immersed in water could not be saved.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, then you have invented a new way of salvation apart from being by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

Jesus Christ is the Rock, so says Scripture. Romans 9:33; 1 Cor. 10:4, 1 Peter 2:8.

You believe what you want, I'll believe what is consistent with all of Scripture.
I'm done.
 
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