@Verifyveritas76 and @Keith Martin - thank you both for this wisdom shared. Consider it taken to heart. It’s not everyday that folks will be so welcoming and honest with a stranger especially on a sensitive subject like polygyny.
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Practical Questions on Polygyny
- Thread starter Just-a-man
- Start date
@Verifyveritas76 and @Keith Martin - thank you both for this wisdom shared. Consider it taken to heart. It’s not everyday that folks will be so welcoming and honest with a stranger especially on a sensitive subject like polygyny.
This has been frequently demonstrated but it's always very disappointing when it happens. Family, friends, (former) church contacts all respond with the same rejection of the truth in favor of traditions and culture.
If the OP doesn't mind, I'd like to pose my own questions on this thread too.
As my eyes became more open to patriarchy, I didn't do a great job of tieing in my wife on my new understanding immediately. Partly because I didn't want to go off half-cocked before I understood what this is all about, and partly because I didn't want to rock the boat. My profession has also kept me away from home for some lengths of time, the result being that I became way ahead of her in my understanding on this topic. Well, I found out that even small ripples of plural marriage rock the boat in a big way. Even without me iniating conversations about it (maybe twice in 3 years), it became a stumbling block for my wife. I don't pester her about it (per the advice on the forums), but I also don't hide what I read or supress my intentions.
The recent result of this slow build is that once she realised I was serious and was not going to change my mind just from seeing her upset, she has determined to withhold physical contact. When I seek to mediate this attitude with her, she does not want to discuss my position without a "lawyer or counselor", She has given a number of ultimatums of the final sort. However, she still likes to chat about typical day to day stuff, which makes me feel a little used for emotional support with no real affection.
Surprisingly, my teaching elder/pastor agrees with the biblicity of PM but wants me to heavily consider the implied understanding my wife had when entering a western marriage (despite my self-written vows being providentially biblical).
So I see three options:
1. Do nothing, let her work it out in her heart or leave of her own will. Put it in God's sovereign hands, and trust his purposes. Downside to this is that zero physical contact is damaging in the interim, and I risk the future of my children.
2. Sit down with her and an elder or two, hope they know the bible and don't care more for the traditions of men. At least this would give me a chance to speak my mind without her walking away from me. There are good, solid people in my church that I trust more than most other churches I have been to. (But it's a little repulsive to me to consider taking grievances before other households that should be handled internally)
3. Take a stand to her behaviour. Rebuke her attitude as lovingly as I can, and withhold my presence and emotional companionship until she seeks me out... or leaves...
Does anyone see an option 4? Or is one of those 3 a reasonable response?
As my eyes became more open to patriarchy, I didn't do a great job of tieing in my wife on my new understanding immediately. Partly because I didn't want to go off half-cocked before I understood what this is all about, and partly because I didn't want to rock the boat. My profession has also kept me away from home for some lengths of time, the result being that I became way ahead of her in my understanding on this topic. Well, I found out that even small ripples of plural marriage rock the boat in a big way. Even without me iniating conversations about it (maybe twice in 3 years), it became a stumbling block for my wife. I don't pester her about it (per the advice on the forums), but I also don't hide what I read or supress my intentions.
The recent result of this slow build is that once she realised I was serious and was not going to change my mind just from seeing her upset, she has determined to withhold physical contact. When I seek to mediate this attitude with her, she does not want to discuss my position without a "lawyer or counselor", She has given a number of ultimatums of the final sort. However, she still likes to chat about typical day to day stuff, which makes me feel a little used for emotional support with no real affection.
Surprisingly, my teaching elder/pastor agrees with the biblicity of PM but wants me to heavily consider the implied understanding my wife had when entering a western marriage (despite my self-written vows being providentially biblical).
So I see three options:
1. Do nothing, let her work it out in her heart or leave of her own will. Put it in God's sovereign hands, and trust his purposes. Downside to this is that zero physical contact is damaging in the interim, and I risk the future of my children.
2. Sit down with her and an elder or two, hope they know the bible and don't care more for the traditions of men. At least this would give me a chance to speak my mind without her walking away from me. There are good, solid people in my church that I trust more than most other churches I have been to. (But it's a little repulsive to me to consider taking grievances before other households that should be handled internally)
3. Take a stand to her behaviour. Rebuke her attitude as lovingly as I can, and withhold my presence and emotional companionship until she seeks me out... or leaves...
Does anyone see an option 4? Or is one of those 3 a reasonable response?
@tps26
First:
the usual warnings and caveats. I don't know you or your wife or your personalities or histories. There is a lot more going on here than I can tell from a short description. So any commentary is based on partial information and may well steer you wrong. I can only advice based on what you tell me.
Second:
WARNING
The last guy here this happened to had his wife up and leave him (contrary to her reassurances), taking the kids out of the country. You need to get a lawyer and plan accordingly and take steps to preserve your position. You must presume she is getting ready to drain the bank account and abscond with the kids or kick you out and call the cops on you (making false allegations of abuse in order to keep you away and alienate you from the children). Pray it doesn't happen. But a wife who refuses physical contact has defrauded you of your marital rights and is hardening her heart against you. It's part of her mental preparation to leave. The marriage is dead man walking. You might be able to save it (esp. if this is a bluff/power play) but prepare for the worst.
Treat this as an emergency situation.
Third:
I wouldn't expect bringing up the subject of poly twice in 3 years go cause a woman to nuke the relationship like this. I feel like we're missing something. A few background questions:
Is there another woman in the picture or history of that?
Is this the first marriage for both of you?
How long have you been married? How old is your youngest?
Is it possible she's cheating on you?
What do you mean by "supress my intentions"? Have you made it clear to her you intend to add another wife?
Is her issue with polygamy or with you wanting a patriarchal dynamic to the marriage (you the head and her in submission)? My answer below assume the big issue is about you wanting to add a second wife. But I feel like there is a lot more going on.
What was the leadership dynamic in you marriage before?
Is she suffering from depression or have a history of mental illness?
Have you been making other changes to relationship dynamics in this time?
"away from home for some lengths of time" how much?
What is the content of her ultimatums?
The answer to these could greatly change my advice that follows; esp. the last question.
Forth:
As to your questions...
In anything other than marriage, implied and verbal understandings are null and void; only the vow / contract itself governs the terms. What you are finding is what all men going into divorce find: the vow is only binding on you, not her. Don't expect your elder to understand that or push the wife to uphold her end of the bargain.
That said he is kind of right. The social contract of marriage in the west, what's left of it, presumes monogamy. She really did marry you with that understanding. You really are changing the foundational understanding of the marriage.
That's the naive passive nice approach; never a good option. God's sovereign will was you be the spiritual leader of your wife and it sounds like you really messed that up. Pray, pray, pray. And fast too. But in the end its up to you to turn this ship around.
Being passive likely won't work out in your favor because her going no physical contact is part of her severing the bonding between you in preparation for leaving. Left unchecked, her internal bitterness at her perceived betrayal by you will kill the marriage. If it's not already dead.
It could be a powerplay to bring you to heel. But it's more likely she is hurting (bad) and despises you for 'doing this to her'.
99% of the time they'll take her side. You better know going in their stance and how they'll handle her. But if its not the elders from your church community, and men she respects, with the backing of the church women, it's likely not to work. And it's common anyway for women to ignore elders and therapists who don't validate their feelings on the matter. Which is why marriage counseling is usually worse than useless; most therapists just validate her worst impulses and if they don't she stops going.
I'm not a big expert on this move but so far as I perceive it, withholding time and attention will not work on a wife who has checked out of the relationship and/or is planning an exit. It's more applicable before it goes that far (but maybe I'm wrong). There is a variation on this which has been used by men in seperation/divorce, that is to go cold turkey on her and don't communicate at all except by lawyer (as opposed to begging and pleading and trying to communicate or being her friend) as its the only chance you have via a 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' affect. But it's a hail mary.
That said, being her friend (so far as she allows) but not having affection (so far as she doesn't allow) WILL NOT WORK.
So maybe withholding affection could still work? I don't know. Maybe only if you call her bluff; some men hand her divorce papers when she threatens it to call her bluff, and then establish new parameters for behavior when she blinks, high stakes and theologically questionable but sometimes works.
So here is the thing, it is very likely she's checked out of the relationship (I can't tell for sure from here, but cutting off affection is the key symptom, that and not caring anymore about you/the relationship, as is the insistence on lawyers). You will not be able to restore the marriage until you get her to care again, to be in favor of you again. And given your long work absences, she's used to not having you give her time/attention.
Some men have pulled women back from that brink by pure force of will, taking a stand and insisting on her behaving properly as a wife so long as she is there (specifically with regards to her being willing to talk to you about things and show affection) and enforcing your will. If you can pull that off and get her operating as your wife again, it can give you chance to work on her bonding and being a better leader yourself. This is the only approach (other than calling her bluff & then enforcing your will), that I can recall working once marriages get to this point.
That said, it sounds as if she absolutely won't do poly and you absolutely will and so you're at a standoff that will not be resolved. You won't logic her out of it nor force her hand. The pure force of will likely won't get her to accept poly so I wouldn't make it about that. But you may be able to get a truce on the basis that your desire for poly is purely academic until you actually have another woman. Which would give you some time to work on your relationship with her / decide if you really want to go this route. The talking about things should not be poly, you need to reestablish a firm foundation of attraction and leadership before that becomes a topic again.
Which brings me to...
Fifth:
Are you sure poly is really the way you should go? You need a gut check about where things really stand here. She's checked out and is withholding affection. She's doing this because she feels hurt and betrayed by you for violating your mutually held foundational understandings on marriage. You've sprung this on her with no opportunity to talk about it or have a say or discuss or get used to is or adjust; just decided it. And her response has been to nuke the relationship.
All that speaks of a husband who quite possibly....1) mishandled the situation very badly, 2) didn't understand his wife, 3) hasn't been a good spiritual leader, 4) isn't the head of his family, 5) has allowed his wife's attraction/bonding to him falter, and 6) has been away from home more than is healthy for his relationship.
In other words you messed up your responsibility to God as a husband. You're not ready for poly because you couldn't handle monogamy. Poly is great and all but you need to be able to be a good husband to 1 wife before you can think of being a husband to 2. Fix this situation, become a better husband, and then consider poly later. Repent to God and to your wife for failing as a husband and then be better.
First:
the usual warnings and caveats. I don't know you or your wife or your personalities or histories. There is a lot more going on here than I can tell from a short description. So any commentary is based on partial information and may well steer you wrong. I can only advice based on what you tell me.
Second:
WARNING
The last guy here this happened to had his wife up and leave him (contrary to her reassurances), taking the kids out of the country. You need to get a lawyer and plan accordingly and take steps to preserve your position. You must presume she is getting ready to drain the bank account and abscond with the kids or kick you out and call the cops on you (making false allegations of abuse in order to keep you away and alienate you from the children). Pray it doesn't happen. But a wife who refuses physical contact has defrauded you of your marital rights and is hardening her heart against you. It's part of her mental preparation to leave. The marriage is dead man walking. You might be able to save it (esp. if this is a bluff/power play) but prepare for the worst.
Treat this as an emergency situation.
Third:
I wouldn't expect bringing up the subject of poly twice in 3 years go cause a woman to nuke the relationship like this. I feel like we're missing something. A few background questions:
Is there another woman in the picture or history of that?
Is this the first marriage for both of you?
How long have you been married? How old is your youngest?
Is it possible she's cheating on you?
What do you mean by "supress my intentions"? Have you made it clear to her you intend to add another wife?
Is her issue with polygamy or with you wanting a patriarchal dynamic to the marriage (you the head and her in submission)? My answer below assume the big issue is about you wanting to add a second wife. But I feel like there is a lot more going on.
What was the leadership dynamic in you marriage before?
Is she suffering from depression or have a history of mental illness?
Have you been making other changes to relationship dynamics in this time?
"away from home for some lengths of time" how much?
What is the content of her ultimatums?
The answer to these could greatly change my advice that follows; esp. the last question.
Forth:
As to your questions...
In anything other than marriage, implied and verbal understandings are null and void; only the vow / contract itself governs the terms. What you are finding is what all men going into divorce find: the vow is only binding on you, not her. Don't expect your elder to understand that or push the wife to uphold her end of the bargain.
That said he is kind of right. The social contract of marriage in the west, what's left of it, presumes monogamy. She really did marry you with that understanding. You really are changing the foundational understanding of the marriage.
That's the naive passive nice approach; never a good option. God's sovereign will was you be the spiritual leader of your wife and it sounds like you really messed that up. Pray, pray, pray. And fast too. But in the end its up to you to turn this ship around.
Being passive likely won't work out in your favor because her going no physical contact is part of her severing the bonding between you in preparation for leaving. Left unchecked, her internal bitterness at her perceived betrayal by you will kill the marriage. If it's not already dead.
It could be a powerplay to bring you to heel. But it's more likely she is hurting (bad) and despises you for 'doing this to her'.
99% of the time they'll take her side. You better know going in their stance and how they'll handle her. But if its not the elders from your church community, and men she respects, with the backing of the church women, it's likely not to work. And it's common anyway for women to ignore elders and therapists who don't validate their feelings on the matter. Which is why marriage counseling is usually worse than useless; most therapists just validate her worst impulses and if they don't she stops going.
I'm not a big expert on this move but so far as I perceive it, withholding time and attention will not work on a wife who has checked out of the relationship and/or is planning an exit. It's more applicable before it goes that far (but maybe I'm wrong). There is a variation on this which has been used by men in seperation/divorce, that is to go cold turkey on her and don't communicate at all except by lawyer (as opposed to begging and pleading and trying to communicate or being her friend) as its the only chance you have via a 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' affect. But it's a hail mary.
That said, being her friend (so far as she allows) but not having affection (so far as she doesn't allow) WILL NOT WORK.
So maybe withholding affection could still work? I don't know. Maybe only if you call her bluff; some men hand her divorce papers when she threatens it to call her bluff, and then establish new parameters for behavior when she blinks, high stakes and theologically questionable but sometimes works.
So here is the thing, it is very likely she's checked out of the relationship (I can't tell for sure from here, but cutting off affection is the key symptom, that and not caring anymore about you/the relationship, as is the insistence on lawyers). You will not be able to restore the marriage until you get her to care again, to be in favor of you again. And given your long work absences, she's used to not having you give her time/attention.
Some men have pulled women back from that brink by pure force of will, taking a stand and insisting on her behaving properly as a wife so long as she is there (specifically with regards to her being willing to talk to you about things and show affection) and enforcing your will. If you can pull that off and get her operating as your wife again, it can give you chance to work on her bonding and being a better leader yourself. This is the only approach (other than calling her bluff & then enforcing your will), that I can recall working once marriages get to this point.
That said, it sounds as if she absolutely won't do poly and you absolutely will and so you're at a standoff that will not be resolved. You won't logic her out of it nor force her hand. The pure force of will likely won't get her to accept poly so I wouldn't make it about that. But you may be able to get a truce on the basis that your desire for poly is purely academic until you actually have another woman. Which would give you some time to work on your relationship with her / decide if you really want to go this route. The talking about things should not be poly, you need to reestablish a firm foundation of attraction and leadership before that becomes a topic again.
Which brings me to...
Fifth:
Are you sure poly is really the way you should go? You need a gut check about where things really stand here. She's checked out and is withholding affection. She's doing this because she feels hurt and betrayed by you for violating your mutually held foundational understandings on marriage. You've sprung this on her with no opportunity to talk about it or have a say or discuss or get used to is or adjust; just decided it. And her response has been to nuke the relationship.
All that speaks of a husband who quite possibly....1) mishandled the situation very badly, 2) didn't understand his wife, 3) hasn't been a good spiritual leader, 4) isn't the head of his family, 5) has allowed his wife's attraction/bonding to him falter, and 6) has been away from home more than is healthy for his relationship.
In other words you messed up your responsibility to God as a husband. You're not ready for poly because you couldn't handle monogamy. Poly is great and all but you need to be able to be a good husband to 1 wife before you can think of being a husband to 2. Fix this situation, become a better husband, and then consider poly later. Repent to God and to your wife for failing as a husband and then be better.
@tps26 as @rockfox has said, you are in a tough position, but not one that a number of men here haven't walked or are walking. If you firmly believe it is the Father who showed thus to you and placed the desire, then it is His responsibility to lead you as you lead her.
A number of us have walked through this fire successfully using prayer and fasting. God is able, but really getting before Him and not operating out of your own strength or emotions is critical. Key is getting you right.
Rockfox didn't mention dating your wife... I was intentional about building/rebuilding the foundations with my wife. Yes, she withheld at points, but came to understand I didn't want to trade her, I want her. But, I stood on Scripture, not my logic, when she pushed for exclusivity. (Exclusivity emasculates a man... ergo, monogamy only vows.)
Pray, fast, get in the Word, love her madly, but stand firm in your convictions. Don't make poly the central issue, but keep it visible while rebuilding...
I would add, as it is appropriate, set poly aside (don't ignore it if it comes up) and concentrate on making the Bible the source of your faith and practice together. Build up your relationship with your wife on the truth of Holy Scripture because it's the only sure foundation. Shalom brother.
Hello, @tps26 - Allow me to summarize the advice you've received thus far as the following:
To be clear, this advice applies equally to me as I'm in a similar situation as you described. As much as I don't like to admit, I'm very much unprepared to add another wife to my current family. It was never my intention to maliciously shirk my God-given responsibilities as a husband to lead, teach and build my house by the Word of God, but I've still passively shirked them nonetheless through much of my 4 years of marriage. It blows my mind (in a good way) to learn more and more about what true patriarchy is and what it means to construct my family by God's standards rather than man's traditions. We are in a time of reconstruction as it sounds like you are as well. God is faithful and will not abandon you as you continue to pursue the mysteries hidden in His word (Proverbs 25:2). Hold onto Him even when hope for your marriage/family and your house seems "down in the dust" (Psalm 119:25). I'll say it again - hold onto Him and His never-ending strength no matter what.
Don't be surprised if your wife shares your new found intentions with family/friends. If they already haven't, people will confront you (assume it's out of love), condemn your beliefs and even potentially advise her to leave you. This is where you will need to be confident in your knowledge of the Word on marriage and firm in your role as your wife’s head/leader when others challenge your responsibility. No one else is responsible for her - you are.
I’ll be praying on you and for your family to mature in true understanding of our Lord. Know that you’re not alone in this…
To be clear, this advice applies equally to me as I'm in a similar situation as you described. As much as I don't like to admit, I'm very much unprepared to add another wife to my current family. It was never my intention to maliciously shirk my God-given responsibilities as a husband to lead, teach and build my house by the Word of God, but I've still passively shirked them nonetheless through much of my 4 years of marriage. It blows my mind (in a good way) to learn more and more about what true patriarchy is and what it means to construct my family by God's standards rather than man's traditions. We are in a time of reconstruction as it sounds like you are as well. God is faithful and will not abandon you as you continue to pursue the mysteries hidden in His word (Proverbs 25:2). Hold onto Him even when hope for your marriage/family and your house seems "down in the dust" (Psalm 119:25). I'll say it again - hold onto Him and His never-ending strength no matter what.
Don't be surprised if your wife shares your new found intentions with family/friends. If they already haven't, people will confront you (assume it's out of love), condemn your beliefs and even potentially advise her to leave you. This is where you will need to be confident in your knowledge of the Word on marriage and firm in your role as your wife’s head/leader when others challenge your responsibility. No one else is responsible for her - you are.
I’ll be praying on you and for your family to mature in true understanding of our Lord. Know that you’re not alone in this…
Promise her you’ll never ask her to live poly. You’re losing nothing. You can live it without her anyway. Maybe with the threat removed she’ll be able to relax, restore your relationship (saving you untold thousands of dollars and access to your children) and maybe later she can reapproach the subject from a better place.
Very good wisdom from the men above.
Brace yourself brother! She’s quite possibly going to go to extreme lengths to show you just how hurt and pissed off she is that she’s losing her authority over you!
Brace yourself brother! She’s quite possibly going to go to extreme lengths to show you just how hurt and pissed off she is that she’s losing her authority over you!
Something worth noting here...most Christian husbands have not lived up to our responsibilities. It's not personal, we've been set up to fail by the culture and church. We've not been raised and trained how to do it and what we have been told is mostly wrong. So when polygamy comes up our marriages are weak and wilt like hothouse flowers.
But we are still responsible. God still gave us the scriptures to teach us. Many of us who've brought our marriages through the fire were successful in part because we owned up to our failures and became better men.
This goes somewhat along with my truce idea. There is a caveat here to beware of. If you fold like a wet noodle in this situation she'll be even more strongly in charge and may grow to despise you (or more so if she already does). I'm not saying don't compromise, I'm saying be careful with how it plays out. Poly or no, you want to end up with a strong patriarchal marriage. Some weakening of that may be inevitable in the short term if you compromise to restore the marriage, but there are better and worse ways to go about it.
Lastly, don't forget the old adage...hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Prepare for and expect anything, even the things you thought she could never do.
Do you know your wife's love languages? Do you remember the things that you used to do in order to win her over before you married her? Do you recall the things you did that she enjoyed the most? Is there any way that you can change your job position to where you can be home more often?
One thing I find appealing about #2, is that it may give you an opportunity to share with someone who has always assumed that polygyny is wrong, some eye opening truths.
So this is good news and bad news. The thing is you never really had a Biblical Christian marriage before, but there is no going back. You can't un-understand what you already know. So God is leading you and your family to the kind of marriage and family he wants you to be. The bad news is that your wife might not survive the trip.
Secondly. It should be understood that what your wife is doing is morally wrong for a Christian and against the teaching of the Bible. 1 Cor 7:5 is quite clear on this. This might not give you sex, but it does give you the moral high ground. She is not just rebelling against you. She is rebelling against God.
That is a good point. Is your wife a Christian? Did you agree to a western marriage, or to a Christian marriage?
I do not even remember what my vows were, but I am 100% confident that my wife and I agreed to a Christian marriage with all that that entails. If I have a new understanding of what that means, then Christ comes first and we have to go that route.
Yes.
4. Do your job. Be the best husband (and Father if you have kids) that you can be. Don't worry what she does or does not do.
Ephesians 5:
"25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,"
Do your job in teaching her the truth. Do it lovingly and gently, but be firm, just as you would teach a child.
Withhold nothing from her that she is entitled to. Why should you do wrong, just because she chooses to?
Sacrifice your rights to prove to her that you are not in the marriage for what you can get out of it, but as a holy ministry to God.
One thing I learned is that I can not control outcomes. I can only control how well I try to follow God's will.
Personally, I do not think I would do that. It may just be husbanding style, but to me that feels too much like promising your kids ice cream if they stop screaming. It might work, but it does not solve the problem.
Instead I would promise to continue to give her what she is supposed to have already. Promise to always love and cherish her no matter what. Assure her that you will never leave her and that for you marriage is for life no matter what. Tell her that other than Jesus and your mission she is the most important thing and the joy in your life. Tell her that as far as it is up to you that you want her to stay and share the rest of her life together. Tell her you will always support her and have her back through thick and thin. Tell her that you will always protect her and that she has nothing to fear.
Also, what if God tells you to marry another? As men we serve a higher authority.
Also, you never know what the future may bring. You may find yourself in a situation where you believe marriage is the most appropriate way to handle a situation and the most pleasing to God.
I just think perhaps it is a mistake living your life as if you already know what God has in store for you, unless you really do know, as in he already told you. As for me, I have no idea what the future holds and I am OK with that.
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THIS ^^^^^^ IS a phenomenal point!!!!!
This is precisely the question that sets the standards and boundaries for a biblical family conversation! Whether that conversation is about monogamous marriage or plural is irrelevant. Is the resistance to change based on western culture or biblical principles, and if the marriage was based upon a Christian/biblical foundation, then those principles should be the litmus test for the conversation, not whether or not poly fits a western cultural principle.
So much good stuff here. I am taking it all to heart as applicable, from everyone.
I think the idea of deliberate rebuilding is good, I just have to find a soft spot in her heart to begin from. It's hard to tell if my daily reassurances of love and affirmation of commitment is falling on deaf ears or if she is letting it in. I think a lesson for others to take away is to be on the lookout for a hardening heart and intervene early.
I am keenly aware of many of my past failures, I don't try to dwell on them but learn, and a big part of my momentum on this is to teach my kids the truth and give them an inheritance of wisdom, so that they do better.
To answer some of @rockfox's background questions, this is the first marriage for both of us, and apart from what I posted, pretty vanilla. We're 5 years in, both christians since childhood, get along well with each other and all the in-laws, have a toddler, and a baby due soon. We agree on a lot of things. I am in the military, and she is a stay at home mother. She is thoughtful, smart, generous, and outgoing.
I have been gradually promoting patriarchal values in our family for a little over a year or so, and while she has been a little hesitant to accept these, I think it is mostly due to the connection with PM. I am beyond presenting my beliefs as purely academic; I have tried to convince her of my intent and integrity by opening my heart to her on this as a deep rooted ontological purpose, gift, and calling in the vein of The Great Omission. It would be unbelievable to call it pure academics at this point, so that's out.
In a way, this has always felt like a one-way alley to me. The only things I can control are speed and a small margin of steering to keep from crashing. I could hit the brakes but then I would be stuck in a bad place for everyone.
@cnystrom I think the biblical vs. western marriage distinction is a very worthy point. I would say it was implied we agreed to a christian marriage as much as it could be said we had an implied monogamous marriage. I am trying to get in the mindset where if I were to go to christian counseling with my wife to reconcile this it would be like doing "pre-marital" counseling all over again, because to me that's how I would be looking at it - preparing for another marriage (and working on the first as well). I think your point would be an excellent foundation in a setting like that. The issue is how do you find someone in a position to counsel when no one you know has experience with concurrent marriages? No one we know has the authority to speak to our situation. I hear you guys loud and clear that most "counselors" would not have true biblical marriage at heart.
I feel like saying that I will never ask her to do poly is a bit conniving. If I understand correctly @The Revolting Man, the premise is that I would just do it anyway, but after she's come around? Even as an emergency, stop-gap measure, I see this tearing down trust. She wouldn't buy it in the first place, she knows I am a focused and determined man, and she's seen me accomplish a lot, often in creative and unconventional ways, she's afraid I can do this, because she knows I can. Which is, in a roundabout way, oddly encouraging. I really think it's important for me to have her with me on this. Because that's going to be huge when I do find another woman I want to add to my family. I don't know what other woman would want to join a family with an angry sister wife to look forward to. My credibility in all spheres goes way up with my wife on board, and potential to be seen as creepy goes way down
.
What I am picking up here is that my best way forward is prayer, love, and speaking truth to her. I have really been emboldened and taught by Numbers 30. That I can't uphold any false remark, minor slight, or half-truth by my silence, I have to be ready to speak into everything. I have to trust God to use this man of unclean lips for his purposes.
I am really just in a state of painful peace right now. It hurts, but God is sovereign, but it hurts, but God is sovereign.
I think the idea of deliberate rebuilding is good, I just have to find a soft spot in her heart to begin from. It's hard to tell if my daily reassurances of love and affirmation of commitment is falling on deaf ears or if she is letting it in. I think a lesson for others to take away is to be on the lookout for a hardening heart and intervene early.
I am keenly aware of many of my past failures, I don't try to dwell on them but learn, and a big part of my momentum on this is to teach my kids the truth and give them an inheritance of wisdom, so that they do better.
To answer some of @rockfox's background questions, this is the first marriage for both of us, and apart from what I posted, pretty vanilla. We're 5 years in, both christians since childhood, get along well with each other and all the in-laws, have a toddler, and a baby due soon. We agree on a lot of things. I am in the military, and she is a stay at home mother. She is thoughtful, smart, generous, and outgoing.
I have been gradually promoting patriarchal values in our family for a little over a year or so, and while she has been a little hesitant to accept these, I think it is mostly due to the connection with PM. I am beyond presenting my beliefs as purely academic; I have tried to convince her of my intent and integrity by opening my heart to her on this as a deep rooted ontological purpose, gift, and calling in the vein of The Great Omission. It would be unbelievable to call it pure academics at this point, so that's out.
In a way, this has always felt like a one-way alley to me. The only things I can control are speed and a small margin of steering to keep from crashing. I could hit the brakes but then I would be stuck in a bad place for everyone.
@cnystrom I think the biblical vs. western marriage distinction is a very worthy point. I would say it was implied we agreed to a christian marriage as much as it could be said we had an implied monogamous marriage. I am trying to get in the mindset where if I were to go to christian counseling with my wife to reconcile this it would be like doing "pre-marital" counseling all over again, because to me that's how I would be looking at it - preparing for another marriage (and working on the first as well). I think your point would be an excellent foundation in a setting like that. The issue is how do you find someone in a position to counsel when no one you know has experience with concurrent marriages? No one we know has the authority to speak to our situation. I hear you guys loud and clear that most "counselors" would not have true biblical marriage at heart.
I feel like saying that I will never ask her to do poly is a bit conniving. If I understand correctly @The Revolting Man, the premise is that I would just do it anyway, but after she's come around? Even as an emergency, stop-gap measure, I see this tearing down trust. She wouldn't buy it in the first place, she knows I am a focused and determined man, and she's seen me accomplish a lot, often in creative and unconventional ways, she's afraid I can do this, because she knows I can. Which is, in a roundabout way, oddly encouraging. I really think it's important for me to have her with me on this. Because that's going to be huge when I do find another woman I want to add to my family. I don't know what other woman would want to join a family with an angry sister wife to look forward to. My credibility in all spheres goes way up with my wife on board, and potential to be seen as creepy goes way down
.What I am picking up here is that my best way forward is prayer, love, and speaking truth to her. I have really been emboldened and taught by Numbers 30. That I can't uphold any false remark, minor slight, or half-truth by my silence, I have to be ready to speak into everything. I have to trust God to use this man of unclean lips for his purposes.
I am really just in a state of painful peace right now. It hurts, but God is sovereign, but it hurts, but God is sovereign.
@tps26 on the 'love' action, when we were initially going through this and my wife was mad as hell and threatening divorce, all physical relations understandably stopped for a few weeks. But, I made it a point to give her copious hugs and to pull her close and spoon in the middle of the night. I refused to allow physical distance while she tried emotional distance. In time, she softened and returned, but with a new and fragile understanding that she was not in control, I still loved her and I was/am willing to patiently work through this with her. Life is great now, though still an occasional bump in the road.
I love the one way alley image. Very apropos. Have often felt this understanding was a one way trip that I am called to and cannot back out of, but your imagery improves it.
And, thank you for your service. Know that UCMJ places you on an additional high wire. Be careful... lots of wisdom and prayer.
Shalom!
I love the one way alley image. Very apropos. Have often felt this understanding was a one way trip that I am called to and cannot back out of, but your imagery improves it.
And, thank you for your service. Know that UCMJ places you on an additional high wire. Be careful... lots of wisdom and prayer.
Shalom!
You can’t make this work without her. Without her it is just another divorce and remarriage. Word it anyway you want but convince her that you’re not going to move some woman in on her all of the sudden.
My wife knew I believed in poly before we got married and it took her four years to accept it. You’ve sprung this on an unsuspecting woman who can only see the negatives and the pitfalls.
You have a pregnant wife who isn’t having sex with you. God is highly unlikely to force you in to another marriage right now, I’m not sure that He ever would even in the best of times.
Remove the threat from your wife and maybe she’ll stop panicking. Don’t lie. Tell her you still believe in it and will fellowship with those that do but that she doesn’t have to worry about you taking another wife at this time.
I’m a submission hawk brother. Of everyone here except maybe @rockfox I believe in probably the most hardcore interpretation of a wife’s duty to submit. But you have a duty to lead with knowledge and as if you’re wife is the weaker vessel. That means you have lots of work to do in this marriage before you even can think about pursuing another. Reassure her and then start doing the long hard work of changing hearts and minds.
My wife knew I believed in poly before we got married and it took her four years to accept it. You’ve sprung this on an unsuspecting woman who can only see the negatives and the pitfalls.
You have a pregnant wife who isn’t having sex with you. God is highly unlikely to force you in to another marriage right now, I’m not sure that He ever would even in the best of times.
Remove the threat from your wife and maybe she’ll stop panicking. Don’t lie. Tell her you still believe in it and will fellowship with those that do but that she doesn’t have to worry about you taking another wife at this time.
I’m a submission hawk brother. Of everyone here except maybe @rockfox I believe in probably the most hardcore interpretation of a wife’s duty to submit. But you have a duty to lead with knowledge and as if you’re wife is the weaker vessel. That means you have lots of work to do in this marriage before you even can think about pursuing another. Reassure her and then start doing the long hard work of changing hearts and minds.
I had a big surprise today when my wife asked out of the blue if we could have some close friends (a married couple about our age) over to talk about our current situation. After being a closed door not even wanting to speak about PM this is unexpected. I know God is in this as always. These are people I trust, even if they are about to hear a new perspective on marriage, they are not the type to undermine. They are able to join us tonight so I would really appreciate prayers alongside mine for the following:
1. That God would be honored and glorified.
2. That my wife would be restored to me so that we can resume God's purpose for joining us; the good works which he prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
3. That she would be opened to fellowship with the ladies here so that she does not feel isolated and alone.
4. That our friends would be edified and built up in their love through this.
I know the road ahead is long, and we are going to arrive exactly when needed, exactly where needed.
1. That God would be honored and glorified.
2. That my wife would be restored to me so that we can resume God's purpose for joining us; the good works which he prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
3. That she would be opened to fellowship with the ladies here so that she does not feel isolated and alone.
4. That our friends would be edified and built up in their love through this.
I know the road ahead is long, and we are going to arrive exactly when needed, exactly where needed.