Prospects for A Successful Polygamous Marriage?

[andrew]

I hope I made sense.

Made sense to me. Contingency planning is everything.

And I submit that as Christ-followers, our main contingency plan is to constantly review our situation in the light of God's love for us, going back to Him every time things aren't going right, admitting things aren't going right and that we need to work harder and smarter, and allowing him to turn us into the men He intends for us to be, without self-pity or blame-shifting.

 

[andrew]

Without getting too personal....

Yeah, I need to clarify something.

First, back to Ginny's list. That's a handy checklist that is a great running start at answering the question "how do I know I'm not ready for this?". Those are prerequisites the absence of which would indicate you're simply foolish for even thinking about this. But depending on the level of your self-awareness, it is possible to believe you have those things flanged up and be wrong, the essence of rockfox's concern as I understand it. But you could be right, and that overlaps with frederick's observation.

When I say "there's no problem in the first relationship that a second wife is going to solve", what I mean is that if you're floundering trying to make one relationship work, going for two just compounds the problem. If you can't juggle three scarves, why even try for three sharp knives?

On the other hand, if you've mastered juggling three scarves, and then three apples (say, having more than 2-3 children), and then three hammers (say, having a leadership position at work or church (not a teaching position, a leadership position, being responsible for the actions of others)), you might be ready for three sharp knives. Or you might not be. There's a judgment call that has to be made, and that has to be made knowing that after the fact that that voice inside your head and all your well-meaning friends will be standing by to apply their 20/20 hindsight to what you should have done. If you cut yourself juggling the knives, you may decide you weren't ready after all, or you may just bandage it up and keep training. And everybody will have something to say about that judgment call, too.

But if you master three sharp knives, you will find that you have developed dexterity and speed and coordination that make juggling three scarves a child's play. The paradox is that you don't know how much better you can be until you try.

I'm getting a little carried away with my metaphor-that-is-trying-to-turn-itself-into-a-parable (time to back off the coffee), but to net it out: All of the women in the plural families I fellowship with have testified that plural marriage has made their husbands better men and better husbands. It's not a question of "am I good enough to do this?". It's a question of "am I willing to work as hard as I need to at this to get better than I am now?".

Adding a wife doesn't solve any pre-existing problems that you're already sucking at. But it sure as heck will reveal problems you didn't know you had and will create multiple recurring opportunities for you to work them out. Onward and upward!

 

[rockfox]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

Everyone thinks they are the exception. A wise man seeks out council, and is humble enough to accept the answer he doesn't like.

@andrew is right, if you have problems in your marriage, if you think adding a wife will fix them you're sorely mistaken. This is the masculine equivalent to the, 'if we have a child it will improve our marriage / get him to commit' conceit some women tell themselves.

What @frederick has noticed is a different, and predictable affect. It is natural for a woman, even the best of women, to find her husband more attractive and seek to up her game once there is a little competition around the house. This can happen at the purely biological level or it could be a conscious positive outflowing of jealousy (as opposed to acting up or getting bitter).

But this is different than the disobedient wife who has her husband on drip fed sex or the low libido wife who lacks desire for her husband due to his lack of masculine leadership or his inability to help her with a damaged past. Another wife is not the best solution in these cases.

 

[andrew]

This is the masculine equivalent to the, 'if we have a child it will improve our marriage / get him to commit' conceit some women tell themselves.

Touché!

 

[frederick]

it could be a conscious positive outflowing of jealousy (as opposed to acting up or getting bitter).

Yes sir!

 

[rockfox]

I have a good feel for why first marriages fail, so what I want to dial in on is the unique aspects of adding additional wives...

As far as good examples to learn from, I'm honored to know of a few plural families who seem to have the more difficult years of transition behind them.

Can Ginny or someone else speak about that transition?

In a monogamous marriage this would happen during dating and after the honeymoon phase. Is this also true for polygamous marriages?

What sorts of problems are faced during this?

There will be a certain amount of difficulty navigating different habits/personalities and jealousy. But the most intractable problems come down to power struggles; something all the more complicated when there are 3. How often do you feel break-ups occur over the former vs. the later in poly marriages?

Can a lot of the problem be avoided with strong leadership and proper upfront expectations? Are these things commonly lacking in those poly marriages that failed?

 

[rockfox]

You need to be prepared to pivot (which assumes a certain amount of humility)

I am only familiar with the idea of pivot from the business world. What do you mean by that in this context?

 

[Jim an Apostle]

There is a difference in being open to more than one wife and in pursuing another wife "just because". Being open and yet letting the Lord build the house is probably best. Having the first wife(s) on board is also best. Be prepared to have your Christianity i.e. spiritual relationships to be tested on an extremely fine level. is it rewarding? yes! is it easy ? NO! One of the hardest parts esp. for the women is to let the little stuff go. You will find that it takes great maturity and faith by all involved. My $ .02 worth after almost a year on this journey.

 

[andrew]

I am only familiar with the idea of pivot from the business world. What do you mean by that in this context?

Same thing.

For those unfamiliar with the term, it describes a business that realizes its original business model or value proposition is not working, so the business changes direction (like a basketball player pivots...) and starts doing something else. Case in point: Friend of mine started a company making musical instruments, was doing okay, started making accessories, designed an award-winning guitar stand that everyone loves, and now makes stands (and wall hangers and stools) exclusively. Hasn't made an instrument in years. (Check out zitherusa.com if you're interested in knowing more.)

The essence of the analogy is that when a business pivots the team is making a choice to change direction and strategy to achieve the goal of becoming profitable and staying in business, instead of finding a scapegoat, firing that person, and then continuing to flog the same business plan. If you become a plural family, you need to be prepared to change direction and strategy (rethink your 'why') to keep the team together on your way to finding that winning business model and value proposition.

 

[andrew]

Can a lot of the problem be avoided with strong leadership and proper upfront expectations? Are these things commonly lacking in those poly marriages that failed?

Yes and yes. And yes on power struggles.

Too much for me to elaborate on tonight, but you are on the right track. The issue is dispute resolution and prevention. Having agreed leadership and reasonable expectations helps prevent disputes. Conflict arises when leadership is challenged or when expectations are disappointed. Dealing with conflict and resolving it, not just burying it, is huge.

 

[cnystrom]

On the other hand, why ruin a good thing if polygamy is fraught with failure?

First of all while I have had discussions with a few women in the past, but I have no experience with actually doing polygamy so you should take what I say with a grain of salt.

For me, though, it goes back to "What am I doing?". What I am doing, or at least what I am trying to do is Ephesians 5. I am trying to represent the Christ role in the great Christ and the Church play that is known as marriage. When I look at Christ I see that he does not walk in fear, but he is ready willing and able to bridge that relationship gap to all who are willing to come to him. I am not Christ, but I try to play the role assigned to the best of my ability as God has gifted me.

Part of this is, of course, working on being ready. I have found that the more you make yourself ready the better off your monogamous marriage will be in any case, no matter what the future holds.

Also I am reminded of the parable of the talents. If God finds me worthy he might increase my responsibilities. The goal is not to try to be the guy with the 10 talents, but to be faithful to what has been assigned to you. If you get assigned more responsibility then first of all that is a compliment, and secondly, with God's help, you do your best and be faithful to that responsibility.

That is how I see it.

This past year I had a very intense courtship (for lack of a better word). In the end she decided not to accept my marriage proposal. There were times where it was very difficult and things were getting very hairy, and I realized that I while I had a vision I really had no true control over the situation and the outcome at all, and I had to just think and pray. "What is the right thing to do today"? or even "What is the right thing to do right now?" and "What is God's will?" and "What does God want?". I had faith that if I did my best to do God's will and honor him that he would use the situation to glorify him and in the end that was all that mattered.

 

[cnystrom]

I should also say that I see/saw that God was using polygamy to counter the homosexuality and feminism in our culture and I prayed to him that if he was really moving in that direction he would need willing men to do his will and I wanted him to know that I was willing if he wanted to bring me another wife, so feel like now if he does bring me one I am kind of on the hook to take up the burden if it presents itself. Oaths and all of that.

 

[rockfox]

I should also say that I see/saw that God was using polygamy to counter the homosexuality and feminism in our culture

I've had a similar realization, well sort of. I've not so much seen what God is actually doing as noticed the strategic potential in the changing landscape. I noticed the enemy is making a mistake with polygamy that opens a powerful tactical/strategic advantage for us. It is momentous, like once in a millennia momentous.

When I look at Christ I see that he does not walk in fear, but he is ready willing and able to bridge that relationship gap to all who are willing to come to him.

When I say, "On the other hand, why ruin a good thing if polygamy is fraught with failure?" it is not so much from fear as from evaluating risk as one entrusted with the well being of my family as it is now. Worst case situation is, after-all, that both marriages blow up and my kids taken and ruined. However that could all be motivated more by fear than I'm able to admit. It's hard to separate wise risk evaluation from fear avoidance.

Now the Parable of the Talents, that does scare me. I often find myself blessed with much ability that I am unable to put to use. But it is a good argument for undertaking polygamy if I desire it and am capable of it. The ability is the calling.

 

[rockfox]

If you become a plural family, you need to be prepared to change direction and strategy (rethink your 'why') to keep the team together on your way to finding that winning business model and value proposition.

That sounds kind of like, when things are going badly don't give up but try something different. But I think you're saying something more fundamental/sophisticated than that which I'm still not quite grasping. When you have time, an example or two would be helpful in understanding.

 

[andrew]

Very astute. I don't know about examples, but try this:

In a business pivot, the objective remains to have a profitable business (whether your idea of profit is to make a bazillion dollars or just to make enough money to pay the bills doing something you really enjoy). You're trying to find the right combination of value to take to the market, and the way you know you're succeeding is you make more than you spend.

What I'm talking about has more to do with rethinking why you wanted to start your own business in the first place. Be prepared to rethink what marriage is for, what problem marriage is the solution to.

 

[rockfox]

I'm going to talk this through in hopes of finding some insight along the way. Warning, stream of consciousness ahead...

What I'm talking about has more to do with rethinking why you wanted to start your own business in the first place. Be prepared to rethink what marriage is for, what problem marriage is the solution to.

Genesis teaches us it is not good that man should be alone. Women were given to us to be helpers in life.

Ecclesiastes points out wives are here as part of our reward for the toils in life (along with food and wine) and are to be enjoyed.

I can also think of at least one commands given that require a woman: 'be fruitful and multiply'. Any others?

There is also your specific talents which may lead you to undertake certain missions in life.

Not sure where to go with this right now.

You're trying to find the right combination of value to take to the market, and the way you know you're succeeding is you make more than you spend.

In practical startup theory, pivots come about because of a chicken and egg problem: you don't know what product your market wants, but you can't find that out until you have something to sell them. So you do SOMETHING you think will meet needs and provide value, get it out there (sooner the better) and start getting feedback. Should you not get market traction or strike upon a need/demand greater than the current, pivot to something else. Sooner the better; fail faster. Stay lean. Bootstrap from success.

We have a similar chicken and egg problem in relationships. You never know what lies in the heart of [wo]man, what experiences/motives/sins lie uncovered, what trouble lies ahead, how you'll all knit together or how you'll react to adversity. The only way to know is to do it.

I can think of four things you can pivot on in a relationship: the wife, the roles, the leadership methods, and the mission. Am I missing any?

The woman...Although the woman does constitute a large part of the eventual success/fail, pivoting through them post marriage isn't a good option. Nor is fail faster exactly a sound theory for lasting marriage. I don't think this is what you're getting at.

The PUA community takes a pivot approach to forming a long term relationship. But they pivot from one woman to another, looking for that worthy candidate; not exactly a Godly model. And they tend to shoot themselves in the foot, never being willing to put in the hard work lasting relationships need and not realizing that the skills needed for that are different than what it takes for hooking a woman for a fling.

The roles....presumably you have need of a helper and work for her to do. But maybe what you first conceive doesn't work. Don't be rigid. Be willing to shake things up, swap assignments around, etc. If she is young, she may not even know where her gifts lie, may need a fair amount of training and practice. Watch expectations. She shouldn't come into this with a rigid idea of what life must be like; to miss the forest for the trees. The point is to be his helper, however he may decide. That may change. She's not marrying a role (i.e. cook) or a title (banker's wife, engineer's wife). All those may change. She is marrying a servant of God and God may take him and you places you could never have imagined.

Leadership methods....there are many different styles of leadership, management, and discipline. Every person responds differently and takes a different style. She's not your first wife, doesn't share your history and won't respond the same way. You're starting from square one, but at a higher level of difficulty due to the more complex social dynamic. You need to come to know her so you can lead her in an understanding manner.

The mission....hopefully the husband has a purpose to serve God for His glory. But your specific vision for life to serve that purpose, not sure how that would pivot in relation to marriage. What missions he may go on to that end are likely to change over time. It may be that the talents your wives bring will change what missions you entertain. Raising children and working to spiritually lead your wives are their own missions as well.

 

[andrew]

Excellent, and I can't think of anything to add to that list of headings.

Particular favorites from my experience:

We have a similar chicken and egg problem in relationships. You never know what lies in the heart of [wo]man, what experiences/motives/sins lie uncovered, what trouble lies ahead, how you'll all knit together or how you'll react to adversity. The only way to know is to do it.

She is marrying a servant of God and God may take him and you places you could never have imagined.

You need to come to know her so you can lead her in an understanding manner.

It may be that the talents your wives bring will change what missions you entertain.

 

[rockfox]

It's been really interesting to read this 1 year on, confirms a lot of the things I've been feeling lately about it being time now for a second.

A few more ideas on pivot withing the marriage:

• Who does what roles (chores, income, child care, etc)
• How you handle time management (i.e. time spent with hubby)
• How you communicate
• ?

 

[rockfox]

I ran across a new possible reason for failure in polygamy...

I am duty-bound to say that if you came to Christian/Messianic polygamy only to live a biblical lifestyle without living the rest of Yahweh's Law that he will thrash you until you repent or flee. This is one of the reasons why so many Christian polygamous marriages are either a pale shadow of what they should be or a dismal failure.

Not sure what to think about that. But it is worth noting as I tend to look at physical/relational causes of failure instead of supernatural.

I've been paying a lot of attention to poly marriages that fail or prospective relationships that fail. In virtually every case there were clear red flags ahead of time. Some were warnings ignored that the person or match was unsuitable. In the other cases the story makes clear that the people involved were not ready or operating out of the wrong motives.

It is also worth pointing out that the default assumption in our culture is monogamy. That is the easy road, the well worth path. In too many cases those interested in polygamy are so because they failed to secure or pull off monogamy. A history of relationship failure doesn't portend well for a successful polygamous relationship.

It also doesn't seem like men are having a lot of luck convincing women new to the idea of poly to make the jump. It seems like there needs to be a cultural shift for this all to change, such that people are more default open to the idea. We may see that with all the sister wives TV shows, but that affect will be strongest in those who were young at the time these shows came out; so there will be a delay before we see the affect of that in the marketplace.

Then there is the math... I've got a writeup on that I'll post later.

 

[andrew]

Eh....

One the one hand, that is in fact the article that I referenced here recently about polygamy being an end times sifter. So that answers the question of whether that website is still up.

And I have come to agree that at this time and place in this culture, plural marriage--as the concrete embodiment of patriarchal principles that are otherwise fuel for endless philosophical speculation, debate, argument, and hypocrisy--functions as a kind of shibboleth. You either is or you ain't. Simple to the point of simplistic. But not far off.

I think the way I would put it today is that if someone who claims to be a Christian encounters the claim that the bible shows us that God endorses plural marriage (within reasonable limits and a few restrictions) and is then unwilling to read the bible for themselves and seek the truth that is there, then the nicest thing I can say is that they aren't really serious about following Christ, regardless of how time-consuming their religious observances are.

To that extent, I agree with the author of that article.

Meanwhile....

I have to point out that not one of Nathan, Ron, or I is a Torah-keeper, and while we welcome Messianic and Hebrew Roots believers in fellowship, the idea presented in the quote above and expanded upon in the article (ahem...) does not represent the opinions of the management. I hope that's all I have to say about that.

As rockfox points out above, most of the times when relationships fail it is a big surprise only to the parties to the relationship, and there are often people around the situation that tried to help them that can explain exactly why the relationship failed, while the parties are still scratching their heads or simply flinging poo and blaming each other for all the problems. There are supernatural vectors of course, but they have physical/tangible manifestations that we can deal with (or not) appropriately, whether we know exactly what is going on behind the curtain or not.