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The truth from southern Utah
- Thread starter The truth
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That’s all ya got, bud?
That’s pretty pathetic.
@The truth maybe you should check out Proverbs 17:15 before you start slinging around accusations like that! I'm pretty sure "abomination to God" isn't something you, or anyone wants.
@The truth
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1 Corinthians 7:1-3 KJV
What is amazing about this passage is that it completely lines up with what Torah teaches Exodus.
If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exodus 21:10 KJV
Remember YaHWeH the LORD is the one who regulated marriage, who one can have sex with and who one cannot have sex with.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
This passage in Ephesians I believe lines up with...
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:1, 3-11 KJV
In this passage Yahshua Jesus is referring to himself as the bridegroom, He is expecting 10 virgins, the sad part is five were foolish not very wise, the other five we're very wise and they waited for Him, they were ready for Him and they looked forward to going/getting married to Him.
Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1 Corinthians 7:1-3 KJV
What is amazing about this passage is that it completely lines up with what Torah teaches Exodus.
If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
Exodus 21:10 KJV
Remember YaHWeH the LORD is the one who regulated marriage, who one can have sex with and who one cannot have sex with.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Ephesians 5:25-33 KJV
This passage in Ephesians I believe lines up with...
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:1, 3-11 KJV
In this passage Yahshua Jesus is referring to himself as the bridegroom, He is expecting 10 virgins, the sad part is five were foolish not very wise, the other five we're very wise and they waited for Him, they were ready for Him and they looked forward to going/getting married to Him.
@The truth, what you don't seem to realise is that most of the people here used to be just like you - believing polygamy was wrong because they'd been taught that, and interpreting every biblical reference to marriage as a reference to monogamy, just as you do.
Everyone here then studied the Bible for themselves, in a lot more depth, and realised that they had been wrong.
You clearly have not yet studied the Bible very deeply on this subject, and are completely out of your depth in this discussion. That's ok. As I said, we've all been where you are today.
You just need to learn humility (stop claiming you have the truth - you will NEVER have the full truth because all truth cannot fit in a human brain), and study this topic in much more depth. Studying means not just finding verses to cite, but carefully considering what they all mean, how they relate to each other, and finding a consistent understanding that agrees with all verses on the topic not just selected prooftexts. Come back when you have seriously studied this and have serious questions for us to help you with, or feel you have serious insights to share with us.
Everyone here then studied the Bible for themselves, in a lot more depth, and realised that they had been wrong.
You clearly have not yet studied the Bible very deeply on this subject, and are completely out of your depth in this discussion. That's ok. As I said, we've all been where you are today.
You just need to learn humility (stop claiming you have the truth - you will NEVER have the full truth because all truth cannot fit in a human brain), and study this topic in much more depth. Studying means not just finding verses to cite, but carefully considering what they all mean, how they relate to each other, and finding a consistent understanding that agrees with all verses on the topic not just selected prooftexts. Come back when you have seriously studied this and have serious questions for us to help you with, or feel you have serious insights to share with us.
That is one of the best meme captions I've ever seen
Awesome
Isn’t that from a dog food commercial?
Why are you here? If Yahweh hasn't called you to this life and you don't agree with it then it might be a good idea for you to find a group of people who think and believe as you do.
If you are hear to learn then read the forum and learn. These are my people, my tribe and people coming who can't support us and our calling should find a place they belong
It’s a play on words from a quote from the movie “Anchorman”
Well whatever it is, it's friggin fantastic.
Freed from the Law
Romans 7 1-12
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law [a]has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to herhusband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while herhusband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Exodus 20:12,17
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
The version I am using is the new king James version.
Look, I'm stating facts from the bible. I'm not saying this from what I know but what the bible says. The bible gets full credit. Why would you want to share your husband or wife?
Look at exodus 20:12. Its all singular not plural.
If you marry more than one man or one woman its committing adultery.
Romans 7 1-12
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law [a]has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to herhusband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while herhusband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Exodus 20:12,17
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
The version I am using is the new king James version.
Look, I'm stating facts from the bible. I'm not saying this from what I know but what the bible says. The bible gets full credit. Why would you want to share your husband or wife?
Look at exodus 20:12. Its all singular not plural.
If you marry more than one man or one woman its committing adultery.
You have not defined adultery biblically. Check what is actually written in God's word and you will discover that committing adultery is based upon the martial status of the woman involved - never the man. That's why polygyny isn't adultery and why God isn't an adulterer for having taken more than one wife. Read Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 23. Cheers.
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You know Mr. T I'm glad you pointed out these particular passages, because you know we are to honor our father and mother.
I only have one mother regardless if my dad was to have more than one wife.
Just so you know I grew up in a monogamous home, as a matter of fact a non-Christian monogamous home.
What's funny is you use verse 17 to prove he only has one wife, sooo I guess that means he has only 1 ox, 1 donkey, 1 servant.
Also you are saying that we are promoting sin with the accusation of "why would you share your husband or your wife".
One it is a sin for a woman to sleep or have sex with more than one man when she is married that is adultery, two a man can have more than one wife if it was a sin then why would there be Exodus 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
You pointed out that Exodus 20 verse 12 is singular, and I give you a hearty amen.
I can only have ONE mom, I'm sorry but two women cannot give birth to one boy or one girl, each woman can have their own son and their own daughter but they cannot share.
So you say if you have more than one-man or one-woman you're committing adultery well I can give you a hearty Amen on the man part if a woman has more than one man she is committing adultery.
BUT if a man has more than one wife he is not sinning.
Also with your statement you are in fact saying GOD was living in sin, Ezekiel 23 GOD had two wives, Moses was living in sin, Abraham was living in sin, David a man after God's Own Heart was living in sin, Gideon was living in sin, I could go on, you my friend are treading on Dangerous Ground when you accuse these men of living in sin with your statement.
Polygyny (one man, multiple wives) is not sin, nor is it in anyway a violation of God’s design. God even portrays Himself as a polygynist in Ezekiel 23. Are you saying that God violates His own design, law, and nature? Absolutely not. Your theology is incompatible with Scripture.
Lamech, has two wives. Never condemned for it by God.
Abraham, had multiple wives. God never condemns him for it. In fact God says in Genesis 26
“[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
That doesn’t make any sense if polygyny is a violation of God’s plan.
Jacob, had four wives and God blessed him with his four wives, saying, “Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.” Kinda of a weird thing to do if Jacob was unrepentantly committing adultery with three of them, don’t you think?
Moses, had two wives. If anyone could claim to know God’s intent when inspiring the words of Genesis 2:24, it was Moses. In Exodus 33:11 God says that He spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. Further more, when Moses took a second wife, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of it and God Himself came down and rebuked them for it. That in itself should make you seriously reconsider your position on this topic.
Caleb, had more than one wife. He was a righteous man of faith and God blessed him and never rebuked him for having more than one wife.
Gideon, had many wives. God never condemned him for it.
David, had many wives. God never condemned him for having many wives, (and said He would have given him more), but God rebuked and judged him sharply for taking another man’s wife (adultery).
Joash, Had two wives and Scripture says he did what was right in the sight of God.
2 Chronicles 24:2-3 KJV
[2] And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the Lord all the days of Jehoiada the priest. [3] And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters.
Ashur, had two wives. God did not condemn him for it.
Elkanah, had two wives. Never condemned by God for having more than one wife.
God says, in Ezekiel, that He is married to two sisters in an analogy and rebukes them both for committing adultery against Him... which makes no sense using your definition of adultery.
Also consider the parable of the ten virgins, the five wise virgins go into the wedding. Jesus tells the five foolish virgins who come late that He “never knew them”, implying that He “knew” the five wise ones.
If my pointing out what God says about Himself offends you, maybe you don’t know Him?
Lastly we are told in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 KJV
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
You are forbidding marriages that God does NOT forbid. I urge you to take your time and do a serious study on this topic through the entire Bible. You will find that much of what the modern church teaches about marriage is based on the traditions of men, and not on careful exegesis of the Scriptures.
Lamech, has two wives. Never condemned for it by God.
Abraham, had multiple wives. God never condemns him for it. In fact God says in Genesis 26
“[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”
That doesn’t make any sense if polygyny is a violation of God’s plan.
Jacob, had four wives and God blessed him with his four wives, saying, “Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.” Kinda of a weird thing to do if Jacob was unrepentantly committing adultery with three of them, don’t you think?
Moses, had two wives. If anyone could claim to know God’s intent when inspiring the words of Genesis 2:24, it was Moses. In Exodus 33:11 God says that He spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. Further more, when Moses took a second wife, Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of it and God Himself came down and rebuked them for it. That in itself should make you seriously reconsider your position on this topic.
Caleb, had more than one wife. He was a righteous man of faith and God blessed him and never rebuked him for having more than one wife.
Gideon, had many wives. God never condemned him for it.
David, had many wives. God never condemned him for having many wives, (and said He would have given him more), but God rebuked and judged him sharply for taking another man’s wife (adultery).
Joash, Had two wives and Scripture says he did what was right in the sight of God.
2 Chronicles 24:2-3 KJV
[2] And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the Lord all the days of Jehoiada the priest. [3] And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters.
Ashur, had two wives. God did not condemn him for it.
Elkanah, had two wives. Never condemned by God for having more than one wife.
God says, in Ezekiel, that He is married to two sisters in an analogy and rebukes them both for committing adultery against Him... which makes no sense using your definition of adultery.
Also consider the parable of the ten virgins, the five wise virgins go into the wedding. Jesus tells the five foolish virgins who come late that He “never knew them”, implying that He “knew” the five wise ones.
If my pointing out what God says about Himself offends you, maybe you don’t know Him?
Lastly we are told in 1 Timothy 4:1-3 KJV
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; [2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; [3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
You are forbidding marriages that God does NOT forbid. I urge you to take your time and do a serious study on this topic through the entire Bible. You will find that much of what the modern church teaches about marriage is based on the traditions of men, and not on careful exegesis of the Scriptures.
If we followed your (erroneous) logic, no one would have more than one child. Why would you share your love for one child with two or more?
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You realize you're quoting the OT, a law which not only did not prohibit polygamy nor call it sin, but actually commanded and approved of it?
Is this really the best you can do?
Hi! Welcome to the forum. I hope your stay here shall be edifying for all involved. 
After Abraham passed, God testified of him saying; "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Gen 26:5)
We know that Abraham slept with Hagar while his wife Sarah lived (Gen 16:4), and yet God said Abraham obeyed His laws.
Ergo, polygyny is not a sin... by the direct word of God.
"I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
"where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)
Seeing how that something is not a sin if there is no law (thou shalt not) against it.. Do we find a "thou shalt not" in the bible concerning a man having more than one wife?
Polygamy means many (separate) marriages.
Biblically speaking, the only marriage that exists is one man, one woman.
Polygyny means many women, or in context, many wives.
Blessings upon you, brother.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." (1Jo 3:4)
After Abraham passed, God testified of him saying; "Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Gen 26:5)
We know that Abraham slept with Hagar while his wife Sarah lived (Gen 16:4), and yet God said Abraham obeyed His laws.
Ergo, polygyny is not a sin... by the direct word of God.
"I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Rom 7:7)
"where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom 4:15)
Seeing how that something is not a sin if there is no law (thou shalt not) against it.. Do we find a "thou shalt not" in the bible concerning a man having more than one wife?
Polygamy means many (separate) marriages.
Biblically speaking, the only marriage that exists is one man, one woman.
Polygyny means many women, or in context, many wives.
Blessings upon you, brother.
There is none so blind as those that wish not to see.
When you are truly honest with yourself you must admit the short fall of your arguments for monogamy only.
Monogamy is a tradition of man not the god of the bible.
The implications of understanding that polygamy is acceptable is nothing short catastrophic to your complete belief structure. You must then truthfully learn and grow into a real man or woman. There is no hiding here.
I’ve been where you are and some days I have wished I hadn’t seen the truth in polygamy as your monogamy position is far easier.
But I’ll take the truth of god over the truth of a man any day.
When you are truly honest with yourself you must admit the short fall of your arguments for monogamy only.
Monogamy is a tradition of man not the god of the bible.
The implications of understanding that polygamy is acceptable is nothing short catastrophic to your complete belief structure. You must then truthfully learn and grow into a real man or woman. There is no hiding here.
I’ve been where you are and some days I have wished I hadn’t seen the truth in polygamy as your monogamy position is far easier.
But I’ll take the truth of god over the truth of a man any day.