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General And Jesus said to them, “I ask you, ...?"

Daniel DeLuca said:
I'm sure if you search for it, you will find a Christian nudist group out there somewhere.
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Yes, you have those churches in the USA.
gardenofedenchurch.org

Lake Como Garden of Eden Church

gardenofedenchurch.org gardenofedenchurch.org

I've referred people to that group in the past to show the error of their reasoning.

Jesus wasn't a vegetarian, nudist, horticulturalist, married to one woman so it cannot be sinful to eat meat, wear clothes, be a carpenter, and be single or married to more than one woman!
 
MeganC said:
No, but there can be an error in the limited understanding of the people who received God's Word.

Genesis 1:8 (KJV) And God called the firmament Heaven

These six words led to centuries of religious leaders denying any idea that the heavens (not Heaven) were something other than a hard surface of some sort with lights from Heaven shining through or that the planets moved along some sort of fixed course in the sky like a railroad. Men were persecuted and sometimes executed for suggesting that the specific altitude of a solid sky was indefinite because it wasn't solid. Galileo was persecuted for daring to look at an imperfect Moon with a telescope. It was heresy to view the imperfect surface of the Moon.

The sky is absolutely not a firmament like the land that divided the seas. Yet that's what a nomadic sheepherder from around 5,000 years ago believed and that's what he wrote down because this was how he understood the wisdom that had been revealed by God. God in His Wisdom has given humanity the ability to learn and to discover that stars are not just holes in a solid sky. We know that the sky is not a firmament and while I'm sure there are people who will try to explain away why the firmament of the land is somehow different from the not-a-firmament of the sky the fact remains that firmament is what was said.

Now do I think God was wrong? No, of course not. But I think the people who received His Wisdom had two challenges:

1. They had to wrap their heads around God's Wisdom and in a context they could understand and accept.
2. Then they had to pass along this wisdom to their peers who had to have perhaps highly sophisticated ideas and concepts translated into a simplified context they could understand and accept.

To me I look at the immensity of the universe and I see the Hand of God. If someone else wants to believe the world is a few thousand years old then I am happy for them. For me I have no problem accepting that God performed His work of Creation not in six days of human perception but over unimaginable eons of time that are measured by numbers that even the most educated of nomadic sheepherders would have been unable to consider.

All of the interpretation of God's Wisdom is I think part if why He summoned Moses and wrote His Ten Commandments in stone and then He did so in a way that the skilled stone carvers like Joshua would instantly recognize as being carved by a hand other than that of men. None of these skilled men had any doubt that the stones were carved by God because no man could have carved them. I know the Bible doesn't say this but it's easy to figure out just by reading the Bible.

The Ten Commandments are the literal Word of God, written in stone by God Himself, and there's no fooling around with the interpretation of them (unless you're a Catholic). They're clear, simple, and easily understood. God being a very effective writer.

Now to go back to what I wrote at the beginning: No, but there can be an error in the limited understanding of the people who received God's Word.

I have a limited understanding of God's Word because I can read the words and some of them don't resonate for me. I am incapable of understanding them. I look to other people to see how they've made the Word of God real in their lives and my understanding comes from seeing the fruits of faith in their lives. I do a lot of things that I don't understand but the proof of my faith and the proof of the wisdom behind these things is revealed in the better life I live.

In this much I can relate to and admire the nomadic sheepherder from around 5,000 years ago who did his best to understand the revealed Wisdom of God and who worked to implement that Word in his life and to pass it along to his children in the hopes that they could live better lives as Godly people. He had faith.
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Perhaps I should post a thread to discuss the old earth, young earth debate and I'll get ideas for questions about polygamy??
 
frederick said:
Yes, you have those churches in the USA.
gardenofedenchurch.org

Lake Como Garden of Eden Church

gardenofedenchurch.org gardenofedenchurch.org

I've referred people to that group in the past to show the error of their reasoning.

Jesus wasn't a vegetarian, nudist, horticulturalist, married to one woman so it cannot be sinful to eat meat, wear clothes, be a carpenter, and be single or married to more than one woman!
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Wow!!!! I followed the YouTube "debate" between @PeteR and that 119 fellow, and I found it priceless, his odd interpretation of the nudity in the Garden of Eden. Oh sure, they were nude with each other, but he would have you believe that is all it was!!! I guess he forgot about the part where they sewed fig leaves together, because they suddenly realized that they were naked.
 
Daniel DeLuca said:
I always ask why the word "gunaika" was translated "woman" in Matt 5:28, when everywhere else Matthew used it, it was translated "wife".
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I stopped reading the word wife some time ago. When we see wife in the scripture that is man's interpretation, that is the same word for woman through the whole Greek New Testament. If you simply read it as woman and allow the context and the Holy Spirit to guide you, you will be able to discern which one to use. As I believe you have correctly pointed out, I believe this verse should say "everyone who is looking on a wife to covet her did already commit adultery with her in his heart". This english rendering is done so by using the exact same greek just a different interpretation of the Greek. The word desire there is the same word as covet, when used in Exodus in the Septuagint.
1st Timothy 2:12 should be noted because Paul stops using a plural women and changes to singular woman. I believe here the word woman should be wife for us to understand that passage.
 
frederick said:
There are situations recorded in the Bible where we see Jesus using a question or questions to confront people in their erroneous thinking or attitudes about something. For example, in Luke 6:6-11 Jesus was in the synagogue and was about to heal a man on the Sabbath. Knowing the minds of those present, He said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to destroy it?” I'd like to follow His example and be able to have questions to challenge or even confront those who are caught up in error regarding a man having more than one wife.

I'm wondering, are there specific questions you have used or might use to confront anti-polygamists in their erroneous thinking or attitudes about this topic? What were the circumstances or line of discussion and what did/would you ask?

I'm keen to get ideas of the sorts of questions you ask from both men and women here, and especially from women who e.g. have been accused of supporting her husband in 'adultery' by allowing him to have another wife? What questions do you ask? I'm more interested in questions than in lines of argument.

A question I asked when someone was using the 'creation ideal' argument for one man married to only one woman is; Why didn't Jesus Christ live up to your creation ideal? A related question; How could He be sinless if He didn't live up to your creation ideal?

Look forward to your ideas however I do realize we will probably get a similar reaction to what Jesus got. In Luke 6:11 we are told, But they themselves were filled with rage, and were discussing together what they might do to Jesus.
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These were from my letter to some family. They obviously need context when asked but they have been effective. I will have some more for you, this is the method by which God has blessed me to teach is by simply asking questions to others and allowing them to come to their own conclusions.

Does God regulate sin?
Did God ever command against Polygyny?
Would God make himself an unrighteous sinner in an allegory?
Was anyone who followed Gods laws concerning Polygyny called unrighteous for Polygyny?
Would God give someone a good wage for sinning?
Would God be a participant in helping someone sin?

Also 3 questions God gave me to ask others when they question me were,
Is Polygyny sexual immorality?
Do you know God's will for my life?
Are we all consenting to this?
 
frederick said:
There are situations recorded in the Bible where we see Jesus using a question or questions to confront people in their erroneous thinking or attitudes about something. For example, in Luke 6:6-11 Jesus was in the synagogue and was about to heal a man on the Sabbath. Knowing the minds of those present, He said to them, “I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to destroy it?” I'd like to follow His example and be able to have questions to challenge or even confront those who are caught up in error regarding a man having more than one wife.

I'm wondering, are there specific questions you have used or might use to confront anti-polygamists in their erroneous thinking or attitudes about this topic? What were the circumstances or line of discussion and what did/would you ask?

I'm keen to get ideas of the sorts of questions you ask from both men and women here, and especially from women who e.g. have been accused of supporting her husband in 'adultery' by allowing him to have another wife? What questions do you ask? I'm more interested in questions than in lines of argument.

A question I asked when someone was using the 'creation ideal' argument for one man married to only one woman is; Why didn't Jesus Christ live up to your creation ideal? A related question; How could He be sinless if He didn't live up to your creation ideal?

Look forward to your ideas however I do realize we will probably get a similar reaction to what Jesus got. In Luke 6:11 we are told, But they themselves were filled with rage, and were discussing together what they might do to Jesus.
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I think the questions will be dependent on where the person is at in their knowledge of the topic. If the people in question are not aware that you or anyone in particular are in polygamy, you can ask questions like: "What should the church's response be if a polygamist family converted to Christianity and sought fellowship by joining the church?" Or "What would and what should the church's response be if King David, a man after God's own heart, sought to join the fellowship?" Without seeming defensive of yourself or any particular individuals.


For those who already know of your connections with a polygamist situation or family, you could pose questions like:

"Would you condone divorce as a better alternative?"
"If you claim the plural marriages are invalid from the beginning of them, then what makes a marriage valid then?"
"Could you give a biblical definition of marriage?"
"Does God view polygyny as a valid form of marriage?"
"Likewise, how does God view the vows a man makes to each of his wives?"
"If you condone divorce, how do you decide which wife he keeps?"

After these questions, you open the door to say things like:

"Wouldn't it be more glorifying to God that the man would uphold his vows to each of his wives?"
"Wouldn't it be more glorifying to God that the man remains a father figure to all of his children and keeps from having a broken house?"

Once this has been done, it opens the door for more direct paths of Scriptural questions, as you will have a better understanding of their worldview and may have even begun to get them to question their previously held convictions. Once you can see where the person is at on a lot of things, as any one answer will usually reveal a lot more than the question simply asked, you can be more targeted and specific with your Scriptural questions going forward.
 
Hebrews 12:4-11, Rev 3:19, Proverbs 3:12, Proverbs 13:24, and echos of Deuteronomy tell us that the Lord disciplines His children whom He loves. I like to ask the question of where is God's discipline to the forefathers for Polygyny? Are they not considered sons? Does He not love them? Is God just a liar then? I can sometimes be a little harsh but that's part of my calling lol. I do believe to speak the truth in love.

Another one is, Do you consider yourself higher than the Apostle Paul? For Paul in Acts 28:17 tells us that he did nothing contrary to the Jews or the customs of the forefathers. Paul with the authority to write scripture did not condemn the ways/customs of the forefathers, what gives you the authority to speak against them? Do you have the authority to add to His word?
 
James Pease said:
These were from my letter to some family. They obviously need context when asked but they have been effective. I will have some more for you, this is the method by which God has blessed me to teach is by simply asking questions to others and allowing them to come to their own conclusions.

Does God regulate sin?
Did God ever command against Polygyny?
Would God make himself an unrighteous sinner in an allegory?
Was anyone who followed Gods laws concerning Polygyny called unrighteous for Polygyny?
Would God give someone a good wage for sinning?
Would God be a participant in helping someone sin?

Also 3 questions God gave me to ask others when they question me were,
Is Polygyny sexual immorality?
Do you know God's will for my life?
Are we all consenting to this?
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Excellent thanks James. Those are the sorts of questions I was looking for. Yes, every question will have it's own context for application.
 
James Pease said:
Hebrews 12:4-11, Rev 3:19, Proverbs 3:12, Proverbs 13:24, and echos of Deuteronomy tell us that the Lord disciplines His children whom He loves. I like to ask the question of where is God's discipline to the forefathers for Polygyny?
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That's a really good line of questioning. I haven't considered that line, so will add that to the mix.
 
Excellent questions. I've written many articles posing or answering these or similar questions but makes me think an article dedicated to asking these questions with links to the answers might be another piece in the ongoing war for truth...
 
PeteR said:
Excellent questions. I've written many articles posing or answering these or similar questions but makes me think an article dedicated to asking these questions with links to the answers might be another piece in the ongoing war for truth...
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I agree completely. And maybe a short YouTube video asking and answering each one individually. 🤔
 
Considering the fact that a potential second wife may possibly be the one you might ask, might you ask a different question, considering the possible viceral reaction you might get from her when you bring up the topic? From time to time, there may be opportune moments, say for instance, a potential second might bemoan her inability to find "the one", or she has recently attended a friend's wedding, you might ask her if she caught the boquet, which could then lead to other questions.

EDIT: I think you would want to add humor where possible, but at the same time, empathize with how she is feeling, but there has to be a transition that would get her thinking.
 
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Daniel DeLuca said:
Considering the fact that a potential second wife may possibly be the one you might ask, might you ask a different question, considering the possible viceral reaction you might get from her when you bring up the topic? From time to time, there may be opportune moments, say for instance, a potential second might bemoan her inability to find "the one", or she has recently attended a friend's wedding, you might ask her if she caught the boquet, which could then lead to other questions.

EDIT: I think you would want to add humor where possible, but at the same time, empathize with how she is feeling, but there has to be a transition that would get her thinking.
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I totally agree; you ask your audience the appropriate question the appropriate way. Jesus was very blunt with the religious leaders but gentle with the general populace.

I would be very careful about posing the sorts of questions above to a woman who I might be interested in.
 
It's a good point you raise about there being multiple polygynous fathers in the genealogy of Jesus Christ but especially that He came through Solomon, the son of Bathsheba.
 
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