Courtship or Adultery/Affair/Lust?

[Anonymous]

What I meant is that it is imperative that his wife bond like a sister to his potential second wife. I agree that he should identify a potential wife first. However, once he determines that the qualities of his potential meet his criteria, his wife should have the opportunity to get to know his potential.

Ahh, see, I knew I wasn't grasping that right. I agree 100%. It is vital in a polygynous marriage for the wives to be able to get along like sisters and work together for the common good of the family. A feminist mindset makes them work against one another, competing for attention and becoming rivals. A patriarchal mindset understands the benefits of a polygynous marriage is as much for them as for the husband.

I know that at least for myself, if my first wife told me she couldn't handle my choice of prospective second wife, and it was clear this was something that could not be resolved, it would basically be a non-starter for me. After God, my first priority is to the stability of my existing marriage and I wouldn't allow anything to threaten my preexisting relationship. The same would be true in the selection of a third, fourth, etc. wife. It's either going to be a good fit or it's not.

I tell you this from experience because right now I have a potential second wife that I really like. I told her not to worry about me, but to win my wife's heart. I advised her to be extra charming and sweet to my wife. It is starting to work, I feel my wife opening up to her more and more. Once my wife starts to really like her, then I can pursue some more.

That's pretty neat. In my own case, I met a woman many months ago that wants to join our family and my wife agrees she's great and would be ecstatic if I decided to marry her today. We've been staying in contact through constant e-mails, getting to learn each others' likes and dislikes, personality types, etc. They also communicate every few days via e-mail, discussing current events in their lives. In the meantime, I've been praying and seeking God's will regarding my taking on the responsibilities of an additional wife. To me, this is at least as big a decision as getting married the first time, so I want us to take things slower, continue to learn about one another, and for both of us to hear from God about His will in this. Every indication is that God has arranged everything so I wouldn't attempt to do this on my own. I can't imagine a better match for myself and my family, but there's no rush. Point being, unless the wives hit it off, it's not something I would recommend to anyone considering polygynous marriage.

Love in Him,
David

 

[Sara]

Hi David (and anyone else who responded to my post except jorgema)

I would first like to say that I'm responding not as a non-polygamist, but as a human being. And as a Christian as most of you are, I would think that all of you would find this wandering man's behavior inappropriate as he is not married to this woman.

#2 If you're saying that this man should be allowed to play the field because he's searching for a second wife, I get it. BUT, his current flame is not interested in being his second wife. So right then and there you should see that this is a not a polygamous debacle but more of a standard situation of infidelity.

#3 This man's current wife's feelings and heart are at stake here. I understand that being a polygamist is different from being a monogamist, but at some point you need to draw the line on what you're willing to accept as appropriate behavior. As someone whose name I can't remember posted, "we are pioneers in modern polygamy and don't have a handbook," I get that too. But common sense and reality need to come into play at some point.

Also note that we don't get a handbook on life when we're born. Instead we learn through experiences and interactions with others what is acceptable behavior, we learn in kindergarten to treat others as we'd like to be treated - with respect and honesty. If this poor man is too blind to see what is going on in his own life, then I say that this situation is just one more reason why polygamy has a bad name in modern western society.

Sara

 

[Mark C]

If this poor man is too blind to see what is going on in his own life, then I say that this situation is just one more reason why polygamy has a bad name in modern western society.

You will note that there is very little, if any, disagreement about whether or not this behavior is acceptable on this site, Sara.

Where you see objection -- as I now try to point out -- is on an attempt to generalize. This has NOTHING to do with "polygyny" and everything to do with unacceptable actions. THAT is the type of generalization which tends to bother those of us who know and accept more about what the Bible really says about MARRIAGE. It's not about how many; it's about right versus wrong.

I could even be sarcastic and add that this behavior has much more in common with "modern western society" than it does Biblical patriarchy.

Even when we disagree, however, the Bible tells us (more than once, of course) that there is a right and a wrong way to chasten someone in such error.

Finally, I can't help but note that you seemed to agree:

I would think that all of you would find this wandering man's behavior inappropriate as he is not married to this woman.

Indeed, that is what most above have already noted.

Blessings,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Sara,

I'm in complete agreement with Mark on this. We're all saying his behavior was wrong.

And as a Christian as most of you are, I would think that all of you would find this wandering man's behavior inappropriate as he is not married to this woman.

Correct, the sexual extracurricular activities outside of marriage is unacceptable for that very reason.

If you're saying that this man should be allowed to play the field because he's searching for a second wife, I get it.

Quite the opposite, if I take your meaning of "playing the field". A man, married or not, has no business engaging in sexual activities with any woman other than his wife. He may choose to court, date (non-sexual), etc. as he feels led, but just as with an unmarried man and woman, it should never spill over into sexual sin outside of a marriage covenant.

BUT, his current flame is not interested in being his second wife. So right then and there you should see that this is a not a polygamous debacle but more of a standard situation of infidelity.

Agreed that it is not a polygynous issue, but it's no so much an "infidelity" issue as it is a "whoring" issue. Fidelity generally suggests marital faithfulness, which implies the issue is directly related to his existing marriage. As I've already said, the behavior is wrong irrespective of him already being married. With a correct understanding of polygyny, a husband has no promise of exclusiveness to break regarding one wife alone, so in that sense, he cannot be unfaithful to his wife. However, he is most certainly to be sexually exclusive to his WIVES (ie. no sexual contact with anyone OTHER than his wives). He is under the same obligations to remain sexually pure as he was before he was married.

This man's current wife's feelings and heart are at stake here. I understand that being a polygamist is different from being a monogamist, but at some point you need to draw the line on what you're willing to accept as appropriate behavior.

Entirely true, and he certainly crossed that line when the relationship turned sexual. I would hope he has concern for his wives feelings, but the way I read the original poster's message, I get the feeling she was torn between what she knew to be permitted (polygyny) and what she saw as a moral conflict in its application (whoring). I pray that everyone is able to learn from this experience.

Love in Him,
David

 

[sixth_heretic]

Wether his actions are culturally right or wrong shouldnt matter. What matters is what scriptures say.

Eph.5
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a woman he is married to her.

1Cor.6
[16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a whore that man is married to her.

Matt.5
[32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If a woman sleeps with a man other then her husband her husband can divorce her.

Rom.7
[2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
1Cor.7
[39] The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

There is no other way for a woman to divorce her husband.

Eph.5
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Col.3
[18] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Wives you must follow the will of your husbands in everything. It is a commandment of the lord.

Eph.5
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Col.3
[19] Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Husbands are commanded to love their wives. That means avoid hurting them emotionally or physically.

Just trying to bring this discussion back to the word. Argueing oppinion in a Biblical families forum seem unfruitful. What did husband do that contradicted scripture? What did the wife do? What can be done now with out breaking the scriptures further?

 

[Anonymous]

Eph.5
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a woman he is married to her.

1Cor.6
[16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a whore that man is married to her.

John 4:17-18: "The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Yahushua said to her, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,' for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

A man laying with a woman, becoming one flesh, does not make them married unless they agree that it does. Laying together may be the earliest form of marriage ceremony, but in all cases, a covenant must be first AGREED UPON. Otherwise, it is simply whoring. The woman wasn't married according to Jesus, despite the fact that she had a man.

A man and a woman can become "one flesh" but that doesn't make them married.

A man and a man can also technically become "one flesh", which is an abomination, but it still doesn't make them married.

A woman and a woman cannot become "one flesh". They do not have the physical equipment necessary for that possibility.

Love in Him,
David

 

[Australian_Wife]

Sixth_heretic, Thank you. I wanted (and needed) biblical scripture andyour the first to bring this to me. As you said what my husband has done does not matter culturally. Most responses have been so quick to judge and condemn however I am searching for answers on if God would judge him.

The bible scripture you have outlined is what I've focused on. Where I become confused is where it says "becomes one flesh" - at what point do two individuals become one flesh? I don't think the bible outlines this, I can't find it anyway... is it when holding hands, when kissing, when preforming oral sex or at intercourse? If its at holding hands or kissing I had boyfriends in my teens who I would be married.

I hurt so badly, its been the longest and most painful time of my life - and on top of it my daughter is requring regular medical attention and treatment. It's all too much and I'm too weak... I want the pain to end - the pain is however not what my husband did - its the fact he is considering leaving me significantly based on those who were quick to judge (plus other issues which obviously are between him and I).

 

[Australian_Wife]

Additonally David - thank you also... What you wrote is very intersting, your saying two woman can't become one flesh because they don't have the equipment necessary - does this mean its only at the point of pentration/intercourse a man and a woman become one flesh - therefore my husband has not sinned as they stopped short of this - are you able to help with my above question and point me in the direction of biblical scripture stating when a man and a woman become one flesh - what act this is.

Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

What you wrote is very intersting, your saying two woman can't become one flesh because they don't have the equipment necessary - does this mean its only at the point of pentration/intercourse a man and a woman become one flesh - therefore my husband has not sinned as they stopped short of this

I'm sorry, I sometimes assume everyone is already familiar with the terms I'm talking about so I don't always think to elaborate. The phrase "echad basar" means "one flesh" or "one body" and literally describes the physical act of two people joining their bodies together in sexual intercourse. For example, a husband and wife join together at night and become "one flesh" or "one body". They become one flesh during the act of sexual intercourse. It is not a state of being, it is a state of action.

In order for this act to occur, a male must be present, which is why it is not possible for two women to ever be "one flesh" with each other. I'm limited in my technical description due to obvious age considerations on an open forum like this, but I'm sure you get my meaning. Penetration is the point of joining as "one flesh".

Now, regarding your question about your husband not having sinned since there was no penetration, I would say the question is one of defining sexual immorality. With the Hebrew term "zanah", it refers specifically to unlawful "one flesh" relations. Very little is said in Scripture regarding sexual experiences or expression that do not involve actual penetration, one way or the other.

I would remind you, however, that a married woman was perfectly capable of committing sexual "zanah" (whoring) without necessarily committing sexual "na'aph" (adultery) in the process. However, committing adultery is clearly described as a form of whoring in Scripture. In other words, whoring is more general and adultery is very specific. Both are sexual sins condemned in Scripture.

If your husband chooses to view "zanah" as exclusively and literally meaning penetration, then he would be correct that his actions were not strictly whoring in the Hebrew sense of the word. Since Scripture only speaks of the "one flesh" intercourse act, I cannot give a definitive answer to this question. It is much the same situation as with two women laying together. Is an elaborate form of kissing stimulation a type of whoring in itself?

This question is really left open to interpretation because we simply do not have enough concrete passages to form an absolute conclusion. I think the only way I can answer that is to ask whether he would object to his wife engaging in such behavior with another man. If this would be unacceptable to him, then clearly he sees this form of intimate sexual behavior as being a FORM of sexual activity reserved for marriage. If he wouldn't want another man to engage in similar activities with her once she became his wife, then he should recognize that he shouldn't be engaged in them either.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. My knee-jerk reaction was to automatically ASSUME (yeah, yeah, I know) that his specific behavior would be considered whoring, when in fact the matter is probably open to opinion. I certainly can't make a case for such behavior being defined within the context of "zanah" from anywhere in Scripture. Even regarding Ruth's activities with Boaz, she was a widow at the time, and whatever she was doing to him wasn't considered "zanah" according to the passage. Please let your husband know that I apologize if I drew a hasty conclusion that is not definitively provable from Scripture. Whatever other problems are occurring in your relationship, I wish you both the best in resolving them soon.

Love in Him,
David

 

[Erasmus]

Dear friends,

Basically, you cannot become physical with a woman who does not wish to join your family as a plural wife. Perhaps there may be a misconception that physical attraction will win over her objections to polygamy but I doubt that will ever be the case. You have to start out with totally being up front with everything and at least agreement in principle or else there will always be the "I never agreed with it" come up down the line.

To me this brings up the central flaw in the whole plural marriage scene in the western world, i.e. lack of suitable sister wives. Until this is solved there will be a tendency to try to force situations that are not ideal for the family. It would be great if we could all get together and figure out if there is a way to relieve this shortage of suitable mates.

God bless,

Erasmus

 

[sixth_heretic]

For men there is a scripture we must not forget. If a man look upon a woman with lust in his heart he commits adultery. that means no sexual imaginings about women you are not married to. Just thinking about a sex act with someone that is unwilling to be your wife is a sin. Now I do not share this for women to be judgeing their husbands for a woman has no authority in these matters.
1Tim.2[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
But I being a man do have that authority as do all men and as men it is our job to hold all men acountable to scripture since the women have not the authority to do so.
Also we as men must remember that just as a woman is to submit to men in all things so to is a man suposed to love his wives as christ loved the church. Which means as husband we should always seek to avoid any harm that might come to our wives whether it be physical or emotional harm. Christ did he fair share of rebuking the church but he also gave his life for it. Can we as men say the same about all of our wives. A wife should not judge her husband for to judge anyone is to have authority over those that you judge. This is the reason that we men need this site so that we can hold each other accountable. But we as men must love our wives and wives must submit to the husband in all things. If these two things are done with an agape heart then everything else will fall into place.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow Erasmus,

Here I was thinking the whole problem was lack of Good Men!!

 

[Anonymous]

Wether his actions are culturally right or wrong shouldnt matter. What matters is what scriptures say.

Eph.5
[31] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a woman he is married to her.

1Cor.6
[16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

If a man sleeps with a whore that man is married to her.

Matt.5
[32] But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If a woman sleeps with a man other then her husband her husband can divorce her.

Rom.7
[2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
1Cor.7
[39] The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

There is no other way for a woman to divorce her husband.

Eph.5
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
[24] Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Col.3
[18] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Wives you must follow the will of your husbands in everything. It is a commandment of the lord.

Eph.5
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Col.3
[19] Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Husbands are commanded to love their wives. That means avoid hurting them emotionally or physically.

Just trying to bring this discussion back to the word. Argueing oppinion in a Biblical families forum seem unfruitful. What did husband do that contradicted scripture? What did the wife do? What can be done now with out breaking the scriptures further?

Ok Sixth another question that I have for you is "so what is a whore???" If a woman who sleeps around with lots of different men all the time and does not have one she is "married" to then she is just having lots of husbands and never really being classified as whore. She definitely "adulterer" But what is whore if the next guy you sleep with is just your hubby? See what I mean? That is problem with that interpretation...

 

[Mark C]

While I disagree with 6th's interp on marriage by sleeping, Marichu, there's an easy answer to your question anyway. (And it's one asked by God in one of the two polygyny prophecies.) "Where is the certificate of your divorce?"

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Sixth another question that I have for you is "so what is a whore???"

I'm not sure how Sixth would answer that question, but if by “whore”, you are referring to “zanah”, Scripture defines it as a woman who engages in sexual intercourse with a man who is not her husband, including one who prostitutes her body for hire. Of course, the man is also a whoremonger as well.

Adulyery (na’aph) requires marriage and marriage is a covenant that requires intent and agreement. Nobody is married by accident, regardless whether they engage in sexual relations.

Is that what you were asking?

Love in Him,
David

 

[sixth_heretic]

At any time anyone can claim the grace that Jesus gave to us and start fresh with out sin and blameless as long as we know that we have transgressed against the laws of God. To be a whore is not to have the intention of commiting to a man you last slept with. If that is not possible due to mistakes made and bad spiritual choices then it must be the intention of commiting to the next man that you sleep with. Likewise men must commit to every woman that they sleep with as long as that woman doesnt sleep with another man.

While I disagree with 6th's interp on marriage by sleeping, Marichu, there's an easy answer to your question anyway. (And it's one asked by God in one of the two polygyny prophecies.) "Where is the certificate of your divorce?"

Many of us have said many times on this site that there is no need for a piece of paper to be in a commited relationship. If Marriage is about intention and not about a piece of paper. Then so to is divorce is about intention and not about a piece of paper.

 

[Mark C]

Many of us have said many times on this site that there is no need for a piece of paper to be in a commited relationship.

And I'm one of them. Marriage is a Covenant.

But you miss the point there competely, 6thH. There IS a no "piece of paper" required to be IN a committed relationship, but the converse is NOT true: Do not confuse "what God has joined" with what man would try to rend asunder!

Marriage is NOT supposed to be entered into lightly, but ESPECIALLY is it not to be destroyed readily!

When I wrote "where is the certificate of ...divorce?", it was a quote. (Isaiah 50; see Jer. 3 as well)

And, quite frankly, I don't care about what "many" have said, or how often. What matters is "every Word that proceeds" from the mouth of God. And He has Written what He meant. Anything else "is from the evil one".

 

[Anonymous]

another question that I have for you is "so what is a whore???

Marichu, there's an easy answer to your question anyway. (And it's one asked by God in one of the two polygyny prophecies.) "Where is the certificate of your divorce?

When I wrote "where is the certificate of ...divorce?", it was a quote. (Isaiah 50; see Jer. 3 as well)

Mark,

I'm somewhat confused regarding your answer to Marichu's question. What does Yahweh's rhetorical question to Israel regarding the certificate of divorcement have to do with determining who is a whore? Any woman can be zanah, whether she has a husband or not. Since an unmarried zanah would have neither a husband nor a divorce certificate, how do you see Isaiah 50 or Jeremiah 3 relating to whoring?

In Messiah,
David

 

[^_^]

This whole thread disturbs me. I've not seen so much bible head thumping anywhere else on this forum, and I'm glad to see some didn't participate.

As the original poster pointed out, there are issues to be worked out. I hope they can do that, and if I recall, she said these issues are not originating from this second relationship.

I cannot believe that not one person commended this husband for at least being open enough with his first wife to let her know about the other woman and what's going on there. In that I see that while he may not be perfect, he is at the very least trying very hard. Plus the fact that they have discussed this amongst themselves tells me they have a decent base to work at furthering this marriage.

Yes, I am a bit confused by the woman who is willing to go where they have gone if she's not accepting of polygyny. I'm not quite sure what would motivate either of them to continue a relationship that's going to end badly for someone if not everyone. Nevertheless, emotions are strong, so I'm not sure I'm going to judge without 2 or 3 witnesses.

Coffee, anyone?

 

[Mark C]

I'm somewhat confused regarding your answer to Marichu's question. What does Yahweh's rhetorical question to Israel regarding the certificate of divorcement have to do with determining who is a whore? Any woman can be zanah, whether she has a husband or not. Since an unmarried zanah would have neither a husband nor a divorce certificate, how do you see Isaiah 50 or Jeremiah 3 relating to whoring?

The answer was given, at least hopefully , in the context of where I differ with 6thH's claim equating marriage with becoming one flesh, and the misunderstandings that result. The point with Marichu was perhaps somewhat tongue-in-cheek (I realize the danger of doing so in print ) in light of previous discussions. A "whore" does not mistake the sex act for marriage, and, of course, has no "certificate of divorce" because it was never an issue. (I also note that in our culture which has made a sacrament of Serial Monogamy this is less and less true.)

However, you final question DOES merit a comment. Read Jeremiah 3 again., and note the very specific imagery of verses 8 and 9, where both "played the harlot" and "whoredom" is mentioned.

Isaiah 50 caught my eye this morning because it reminded me so much of the (well-known here, at least) dual prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel (chapter 23). Note that the very same imagery (God as polygynist) and unfaithful wives who played the harlot (v 23:5-10) are used in both places. And in both places God put them away, exposed their nakedness, removed His covering, even gave them a bill of divorcement (and sent them into exile). But He is not finished with his wives...


Blessings in Him,

Mark